North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 13:16:39 GMT
I was wondering is it possible to run district line trains to Rayners Lane due to the pic line train shortages and run some sort of service The trouble with running "some sort of service" is you then have even more chance of trains getting their wheels flatted. The chances of wheelslide occurring increase as the frequency of trains running over the section of line decreases, as each train cleans the rails.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 14:08:29 GMT
I was the first train out of Cockfosters Depot this morning. That also had pretty bad flats. I'm sure the experienced driver, sorry operator that relieved me will be having a work with the Controller! We have been told that there has been a forensic investigation launched into the problem as it's the worst it's ever been. For sure there will be an element of "driving techniques" highlighted as a cause. I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer.
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Post by drainrat on Nov 26, 2016 15:22:02 GMT
I was the first train out of Cockfosters Depot this morning. That also had pretty bad flats. I'm sure the experienced driver, sorry operator that relieved me will be having a work with the Controller! We have been told that there has been a forensic investigation launched into the problem as it's the worst it's ever been. For sure there will be an element of "driving techniques" highlighted as a cause. I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer.
I was never shown how to drive in poor conditions. My first experience was severe rain and mist north of queens pk in 1997, I didn't have a clue so (I assume) common sense took over and I slowed the train in order to control it, but that was self taught. I know that low rail adhesion conditions and what they called 'aggravated weather' in the early 2000s brought in poor rail head driving techniques called 'defensive driving' but before that, no such thing. So, I'd have to say, if the new drivers aren't being shown it, they ain't the first ones not to have been shown it, they can join the club with a lot of older drivers too ;-)
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Post by rheostar on Nov 26, 2016 16:53:52 GMT
I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer. The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 16:58:49 GMT
I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer. The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. OOR sorry? OOR or ORR? (Clearly I'm having a bad day with my acronyms today!! )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 17:00:03 GMT
ORR
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Post by rheostar on Nov 26, 2016 17:10:30 GMT
ORR!! I've my stupid head on.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 18:43:18 GMT
I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer. The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. So is there seriously a suggestion that drivers might have been doing this deliberately?
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Post by rheostar on Nov 26, 2016 19:06:02 GMT
The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. So is there seriously a suggestion that drivers might have been doing this deliberately? That's not for me to say. However, the number of flatted wheels in the past couple of years is exceptional. Not a lot's changed in the years since I drove a 73 stock for a living and we never used to have this many flatted wheels. We'd drive trains according to the conditions. If the rails were slippery we'd slow down a bit earlier and use cadence braking. Putting flats on a train was considered as a T/Op error and something we tried hard to prevent.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 19:27:53 GMT
So is there seriously a suggestion that drivers might have been doing this deliberately? That's not for me to say. However, the number of flatted wheels in the past couple of years is exceptional. Not a lot's changed in the years since I drove a 73 stock for a living and we never used to have this many flatted wheels. We'd drive trains according to the conditions. If the rails were slippery we'd slow down a bit earlier and use cadence braking. Putting flats on a train was considered as a T/Op error and something we tried hard to prevent. Interesting. I knew the ER situation on the Picc Line had deteriorated recently (was it ever good?!), but if true that would take things to a different level. Apart from discrediting management, I don't see what purpose deliberately damaging the trains would serve to prove -- apart from reflect badly on the abilities of the drivers and advance any case for driverless trains. On a different note, perhaps BTP could investigate the makers of Seltrac for causing all those flats on the 95 stock as a result of needless EBs! ;-)
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Post by 1018509 on Nov 26, 2016 19:40:18 GMT
What aggravates the problem is insufficient trucks made up and ready to go when a train comes to depot with flats.
When I retired some trucks were becoming available ready built but most trains are stripped down and wheels replaced and then built up again. A long job and only two roads available at Northfields (if the wheel lathe is not working). I don't know about Cockfosters.
Definitely more space needed and staff solely on truck dismantling and re-building.
What causes further delay is very little of the equipment needed to be removed to replace wheels is easily removable - no plug in motor wiring no bayonet fitting pipework - everything is large spanners on badly placed fillings. The blokes doing this job are heroes - I know - I worked with them.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 26, 2016 20:17:06 GMT
I'd love to know what BTP are going to contribute to the investigation... Unfortunately, unless some maintenance process has changed, I have a suspicion it's going to come down to driving technique, or lack of. One has to ask what training newer drivers are getting in how to drive in low rail adhesion conditions, and unfortunately in many cases I know the answer. The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too.
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Post by rheostar on Nov 26, 2016 20:34:47 GMT
What aggravates the problem is insufficient trucks made up and ready to go when a train comes to depot with flats. When I retired some trucks were becoming available ready built but most trains are stripped down and wheels replaced and then built up again. A long job and only two roads available at Northfields (if the wheel lathe is not working). I don't know about Cockfosters. Definitely more space needed and staff solely on truck dismantling and re-building. What causes further delay is very little of the equipment needed to be removed to replace wheels is easily removable - no plug in motor wiring no bayonet fitting pipework - everything is large spanners on badly placed fillings. The blokes doing this job are heroes - I know - I worked with them. I believe one of the two wheel lathes at Northfields is out of action.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2016 20:41:19 GMT
I wonder why ticket acceptance is not on Great Northern, when the Piccadilly Line parallels the Great Northern locals all the way from King's Cross to Cockfosters? It is a lifesaver to get me to work on time when the Piccadilly Line is down.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 26, 2016 20:41:50 GMT
The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. As an ex-union (albeit white-collar) rep, I have to say I find this, if it is true, quite disgraceful. The implication would be that T/Op's are endangering their passengers by faulty driving. If this escalates any further, which I hope it doesn't, there will be every danger of a complete breakdown of trust between management & staff. From a purely practical point of view, this has been a wet autumn compared to the last two or three, and we now have extra wear and tear with the all-night Tube. So, could those things play a part in this? Or is the stock being hastened towards the end of its' working life by the extra hours?
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 21:06:23 GMT
The BTP and OOR are both involved in the investigation. As each train has a 'black box' fitted, it's possible to see how the train has been driven. So if it can be seen that a T/Op has repeatedly dropped the handle for no obvious reason, then it could be considered as deliberately damaging the train. It would then be treated as vandalism with the BTP becoming involved. The OOR are scary. They interview under caution and if I were a T/Op being questioned by them about driving techniques I'd be seriously worried. I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. Do we know, for sure, that this is actually true? (As opposed to sloppy wording on someone's part?).
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Post by snoggle on Nov 26, 2016 21:22:07 GMT
I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. Do we know, for sure, that this is actually true? (As opposed to sloppy wording on someone's part?). That's a fair question and I accept I may have taken previous posts a bit too literally. I'd welcome confirmation as to what's going on.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 26, 2016 21:26:40 GMT
I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. As an ex-union (albeit white-collar) rep, I have to say I find this, if it is true, quite disgraceful. The implication would be that T/Op's are endangering their passengers by faulty driving. If this escalates any further, which I hope it doesn't, there will be every danger of a complete breakdown of trust between management & staff. From a purely practical point of view, this has been a wet autumn compared to the last two or three, and we now have extra wear and tear with the all-night Tube. So, could those things play a part in this? Or is the stock being hastened towards the end of its' working life by the extra hours? It's actually been a very dry Autumn in the SE overall. November has been wetter than September or October, but overall a dry Autumn.
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Post by Tomcakes on Nov 26, 2016 21:28:55 GMT
Aside from the cause of the flats, communication to passengers has been a little lacklustre - a begrudging admission of delays but the twitter feed for example claims not to know why. A lot of shrugged shoulders and "your guess is as good as mine" as to when normality will resume.
Surely somebody senior at TfL will be kicking the relevant bottoms and asking pertinent questions given that the line had several weeks of severe delays last year with the same excuse (I use the term excuse as I do not believe that the problem has been this bad in previous years).
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Post by snoggle on Nov 26, 2016 21:29:14 GMT
I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. As an ex-union (albeit white-collar) rep, I have to say I find this, if it is true, quite disgraceful. The implication would be that T/Op's are endangering their passengers by faulty driving. If this escalates any further, which I hope it doesn't, there will be every danger of a complete breakdown of trust between management & staff. From a purely practical point of view, this has been a wet autumn compared to the last two or three, and we now have extra wear and tear with the all-night Tube. So, could those things play a part in this? Or is the stock being hastened towards the end of its' working life by the extra hours? I thought it had been quite dry actually. It's only very recently that we got a lot of rain over a few days and some stiff winds to finally get some leaves off the trees. The Night Tube hasn't started on the Picc so I can't see that as being a cause unless it's the "new driver" issue as hinted at above. Unless there's a quick resolution I'd be sceptical about a NT launch on 16 December because getting the day service right has to be the priority. Night tube can wait. I can't imagine the fleet team on the Picc being happy bunnies - trying to get wheel flats sorted quickly is a tough job.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Nov 26, 2016 21:31:58 GMT
Do we know, for sure, that this is actually true? (As opposed to sloppy wording on someone's part?). That's a fair question and I accept I may have taken previous posts a bit too literally. I'd welcome confirmation as to what's going on. To clarify, I wasn't aiming that at you. The wording including BTP and ORR has been quoted on official TfL material, so should be able to be reasonably taken as genuine. I'm still sceptical though!
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Post by philthetube on Nov 26, 2016 21:35:00 GMT
I am astounded that the police and the external regulator are involved with this. Looking at the black box data only says what happened. It gives no basis as to *why*. For every supposed suspicious brake application there could be a pile of legitimate explanations and it may be impossible, depending on the time after the event, to collate any evidence to either support or counter any allegation that someone wants to make. Having had years of experience of fault attribution I'm more than aware of what is and isn't possible when it comes to doing detailed investigations. If the Line / LU Management feel they need the police and ORR involved then something is very seriously amiss on the Picc line. It sets a very odd and worrying precedent too. As an ex-union (albeit white-collar) rep, I have to say I find this, if it is true, quite disgraceful. The implication would be that T/Op's are endangering their passengers by faulty driving. If this escalates any further, which I hope it doesn't, there will be every danger of a complete breakdown of trust between management & staff. From a purely practical point of view, this has been a wet autumn compared to the last two or three, and we now have extra wear and tear with the all-night Tube. So, could those things play a part in this? Or is the stock being hastened towards the end of its' working life by the extra hours? If the black boxes prove that certain drivers are putting flats on every train they pick up at the first station, then that is either incompetence or deliberate vandalism. There is then a case for either retraining or possible prosecution depending on the evidence available. Should someone be prosecuted then at that stage there wold be nothing the union could do about it and to be fair any individual causing deliberate damage should be sacked, just as in any other industry. On the other hand it may be proven that it is down to conditions and no individual is responsible, or just to poor training. At one time on the Met drivers used to get a couple of days leaf fall training in their first autumn on the line.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 26, 2016 21:55:56 GMT
I thought it had been quite dry actually. It's only very recently that we got a lot of rain over a few days and some stiff winds to finally get some leaves off the trees. The Night Tube hasn't started on the Picc so I can't see that as being a cause unless it's the "new driver" issue as hinted at above. Unless there's a quick resolution I'd be sceptical about a NT launch on 16 December because getting the day service right has to be the priority. Night tube can wait. I can't imagine the fleet team on the Picc being happy bunnies - trying to get wheel flats sorted quickly is a tough job. I wonder, though, if that's the case, whether the Atlantic storm leftovers have arrived later than usual & caught everybody on the hop? Down these parts, they usually get excess winds & precipitation in October. Looking through Mrs tbf's diary-as she's Stoneleigh born & bred, I suspect she'd notice these things- we've had three lots in November, too & nothing in October. This problem has only just flared up, hasn't it?
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Post by philthetube on Nov 26, 2016 22:05:35 GMT
I thought it had been quite dry actually. It's only very recently that we got a lot of rain over a few days and some stiff winds to finally get some leaves off the trees. The Night Tube hasn't started on the Picc so I can't see that as being a cause unless it's the "new driver" issue as hinted at above. Unless there's a quick resolution I'd be sceptical about a NT launch on 16 December because getting the day service right has to be the priority. Night tube can wait. I can't imagine the fleet team on the Picc being happy bunnies - trying to get wheel flats sorted quickly is a tough job. I wonder, though, if that's the case, whether the Atlantic storm leftovers have arrived later than usual & caught everybody on the hop? Down these parts, they usually get excess winds & precipitation in October. Looking through Mrs tbf's diary-as she's Stoneleigh born & bred, I suspect she'd notice these things- we've had three lots in November, too & nothing in October. This problem has only just flared up, hasn't it? The same bad weather provision is in place October through to December, and can be extended if needed so that should not be an issue.
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Post by drainrat on Nov 26, 2016 23:09:14 GMT
As an ex-union (albeit white-collar) rep, I have to say I find this, if it is true, quite disgraceful. The implication would be that T/Op's are endangering their passengers by faulty driving. If this escalates any further, which I hope it doesn't, there will be every danger of a complete breakdown of trust between management & staff. From a purely practical point of view, this has been a wet autumn compared to the last two or three, and we now have extra wear and tear with the all-night Tube. So, could those things play a part in this? Or is the stock being hastened towards the end of its' working life by the extra hours? If the black boxes prove that certain drivers are putting flats on every train they pick up at the first station, then that is either incompetence or deliberate vandalism. There is then a case for either retraining or possible prosecution depending on the evidence available. Should someone be prosecuted then at that stage there wold be nothing the union could do about it and to be fair any individual causing deliberate damage should be sacked, just as in any other industry. On the other hand it may be proven that it is down to conditions and no individual is responsible, or just to poor training. At one time on the Met drivers used to get a couple of days leaf fall training in their first autumn on the line. Its worth pointing out that each train has its own 'character', a lot of trains do apply heavy braking, but the braking isn't consistent. However, to have a block of flats at one time, in my experience, points toward a stock upgrade possibly from increased brake pressure or increase in pad width. Rumours of deliberate sabotage would spread like wildfire, and having my ears close to the ground, I'm certain I'd have heard by now, but I haven't, so I'd err more toward it being train borne cause, and it's my guess that 'forensic' investigation means depot staff investigating electrical, mechanical and pneumatic systems.
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Post by drainrat on Nov 27, 2016 11:09:10 GMT
Not once, in over 20 yrs driving trains on Northern, Bakerloo, jubilee and Central, was I ever taught how to drive defensively in adverse weather conditions, never. It goes without saying, The way I drive was very much come to from an amalgamation of the experience I've gained away from any training. I've probably seen more flats put on trains in ATO/ATP than any train manually driven, but I've never heard of any 'forensic' investigation into that, what I have experienced is a woeful capacity of management and maintenance to acknowledge anything to do with flats. In all this Piccadilly line fiasco, the one thing that surprises me more than anything is that they've made the big deal about it that they have. They probably don't have any more problem with flats than the bakerloo. On the central line I can usually hear flats banging away somewhere on the train on pretty much every train.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 27, 2016 11:41:09 GMT
All in all, the whole situation is a disgrace. Leaving a whole branch (Acton Town to Rayners Lane) without any train service for 3 days is appalling.
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class411
Operations: Normal
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Post by class411 on Nov 27, 2016 11:47:30 GMT
Presumably, once a flat starts, it will tend to get worse, because the wheel is more likely to lock when the flat is // to the rail.
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Post by drainrat on Nov 27, 2016 12:14:24 GMT
All in all, the whole situation is a disgrace. Leaving a whole branch (Acton Town to Rayners Lane) without any train service for 3 days is appalling. Indeed it is. I personally think there's an element of overkill, worry they won't be able to keep up with maintenance with night tube with the problems they already had. They already had the issue, but night tube added an extra variable they couldn't cope with. As easy as it is to look at driving technique, let's not forget the TUs and fleet staff warned of these issues during discussions.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,255
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Post by roythebus on Nov 27, 2016 13:28:29 GMT
It would appear the Rayners Lane is likely to be shut for at least a week. I drive rail replacement buses and have got a weekend's work covering this line and I've heard they are talking of the cover going on for a week or more. This may cheer up some of the bus enthusiasts as there were at least 4 Routemasters running on Friday with some already pencilled in for Monday's service.
I've never had dealings with the Picc stock, but had experience as a guard/emergency motorman on the District and Met in the early 1970s and 15 years as a BR driver. There's always been a problem with leaves on the line. In the old days when everything has prober brake blocks that rubber the wheels, the problem wasn't quite as prolific as it is today with disc brakes and regen/rheo braking on everything. I was one of those who had to suffer the first of the BR stock with regen brakes, the 508's, and had some worrying experiences with them not stopping where we wanted them to. The wheel slide protection worked too well, so well in fact that they had to put a panic button on them to isolate the WSP equipment. This then locked the wheels and the train would eventually stop!
We weren't given any formal training as the problem in the 1980s hadn't really been "invented". Part of the solution was to fit trains with sanders, which seems to have had some effect. I don't think driver "training" will have much effect. when you are dealing with anything computerised such as the WSP equipment, when computer says no, then no matter what the driver does will alter that!
One of the incidents I had on the SR was driving a 508 into Hampton Court, a dead-end terminus, I slowed the train to 15mph for the crossover entering the platform, applied the brake in the platform, the WSP operated all the way down the platform until the train mounted the sand drag. I was powerless to do anything. the whole episode was covered up and I was told not to report it, so I didn't.
I would suggest that "cadence braking" suggested by someone above would not work on modern stock; this is in effect what the WSP equipment does. Maybe it is doing its job too well, and if the stock is fitted with an over-ride/panic button, then this is what's causing the flats as the WSP is effectively cut out, allowing the wheels to lock. You couldn't do cadence braking with Westinghouse braked stock you only had 3 brake applications with that! With the EP you can, and you can with the vacuum brake and distributor type air brakes.
There is no easy answer. My niece has recently passed out as a night tube driver on the Picc, would she have any idea how to drive a train in autumn? I doubt it. You can only learn these things by experience, and experience cannot be taught in training schools, and I don't believe the current "take them off the streets" policy works. Sorry, but call me old-fashioned, but this view is taken by a lot of us from the 'old school", with main line drivers calling the newbies "boilies", boiled in the bag, ready in 5 minutes!
Edited to add that rheostatic/regenerative braking has the opposite effect of putting flats on wheels. I slid through Stoneleigh one day on a 508 using the rheo brake; all driven wheels were actively going in reverse when I hit the platform and could be heard doing so! I stopped at the 12 mark..and an 8 car platform! Flats are only put on by the EP/Westcode brake causing wheels to lock up.
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