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Post by njr001 on Oct 18, 2016 10:07:52 GMT
Just witnessed somebody at Ricky with a paper ticket trying to exit gateline and paper ticket rejected, notice on assistance window "staff on break back in 30 minutes", after a while he managed to get the attention of someone in the booking hall who released a gate. I though if gatelines are not being monitored they have to be left open
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class411
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Post by class411 on Oct 18, 2016 10:37:07 GMT
I've encountered this when my Oyster card was on its last legs. The solution, after a quick squizz for staff, is to walk thriough the gate extremely purposefully. Or stay where you are and get LU prosecuted for unlawful imprisonment.  |
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Post by Tubeboy on Oct 18, 2016 17:57:16 GMT
Based on my experience working on stations, the person could have simply forgot to open the gates, prior to going on their break.
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Post by philthetube on Oct 19, 2016 3:01:40 GMT
quite possible the gate had been left unsecured but the barriers closed
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Post by stapler on Oct 19, 2016 7:18:21 GMT
Phil, how are the punters supposed to know that (in normal times or in an emergency)? I seem to remember UTS gates retracting in an emergency was the one recommendation of the Fennell Report LRT rejected....
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 19, 2016 9:52:26 GMT
use a help point to contact a member of staff - will switch to a mobile phone if necessary.
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Post by njr001 on Oct 19, 2016 11:28:30 GMT
I am not sure Ricky has a help point it's certainly not obvious.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 19, 2016 13:08:14 GMT
use a help point to contact a member of staff - will switch to a mobile phone if necessary. last time I used one, (on an NR station rather than a TfL one) it switched through to muzak. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 19, 2016 19:11:05 GMT
I'm not sure, but aren't most help points on the platforms rather than ticket halls?
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Post by phil on Oct 19, 2016 19:55:58 GMT
NR standards mandate that ticket barriers MUST be left open if they are not being monitored by a member of staff (which can be done by CCTV and having the gates fitted for remote operation rather than someone physically being there). This means that should there be a staff shortage, the gatekeeper requires a loo break, they need to go off and empty bins or help empty / restock the ticket machines then the gates must be left open - In other words the actions of the LU staff member would clearly be violating the NR requirements.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 19, 2016 20:14:59 GMT
I'm not sure, but aren't most help points on the platforms rather than ticket halls? Yes. You also get them in passageways and places like that, but I don't recall ever seeing one in a ticket hall - presumably the theory going that there will always be a member of staff visible and available to help should it be required. Real life doesn't match theory though - it must have been 2008 the first time I saw a problem of this nature (in that case the person who wasn't being let through the gates automatically preferred to vault the barriers rather than return to the platform to find a help point). Since 2008 the number of times I've seen apparently staff-free ticket halls has significantly increased in frequency so I can only presume it is more common now. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 19, 2016 21:50:01 GMT
NR standards mandate that ticket barriers MUST be left open if they are not being monitored by a member of staff (which can be done by CCTV and having the gates fitted for remote operation rather than someone physically being there). This means that should there be a staff shortage, the gatekeeper requires a loo break, they need to go off and empty bins or help empty / restock the ticket machines then the gates must be left open - In other words the actions of the LU staff member would clearly be violating the NR requirements. If by "NR" you mean either National Rail or Network Rail then they have no relevance whatsoever to what LU does. LU manages its own risks and its own standards regime. Therefore whatever LU have determined is appropriate and has been reviewed / signed off (if necessary) is what will be operating. I do not know LU has formally approached the operation of gatelines in the "brave new world" of no ticket offices and "flexible" staffing arrangements. Given the number of gatelines that I have encountered in operation with absolutely no staff in attendance I suspect something has changed compared to the "ancien regime" that I was familiar with. It is worth saying that the early TOC adopters of gatelines basically "nicked" the LU way of doing things because that was the established method of operation at the time. And, yes, Stapler is correct that in an emergency the gates will open automatically once a particular phase of the fire evacuation system has been triggered. None fire based emergencies require staff to change the gates mode of operation from the SCU or to press the emergency plunger. I have seen nothing that would suggest that these elements of the system have been changed (but, as ever, open to correction by those who know more about current methods). And finally you can, with the appropriate knack, "break through" ticket gates - another Fennell recommendation IIRC. I have been known to "test" this facility on visits to Cubic's old place at Merstham. I think they just liked to see the client do some work.  |
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Post by phil on Oct 20, 2016 7:46:04 GMT
NR standards mandate that ticket barriers MUST be left open if they are not being monitored by a member of staff (which can be done by CCTV and having the gates fitted for remote operation rather than someone physically being there). This means that should there be a staff shortage, the gatekeeper requires a loo break, they need to go off and empty bins or help empty / restock the ticket machines then the gates must be left open - In other words the actions of the LU staff member would clearly be violating the NR requirements. If by "NR" you mean either National Rail or Network Rail then they have no relevance whatsoever to what LU does. LU manages its own risks and its own standards regime. Therefore whatever LU have determined is appropriate and has been reviewed / signed off (if necessary) is what will be operating. I do not know LU has formally approached the operation of gatelines in the "brave new world" of no ticket offices and "flexible" staffing arrangements. Given the number of gatelines that I have encountered in operation with absolutely no staff in attendance I suspect something has changed compared to the "ancien regime" that I was familiar with. It is worth saying that the early TOC adopters of gatelines basically "nicked" the LU way of doing things because that was the established method of operation at the time. And, yes, Stapler is correct that in an emergency the gates will open automatically once a particular phase of the fire evacuation system has been triggered. None fire based emergencies require staff to change the gates mode of operation from the SCU or to press the emergency plunger. I have seen nothing that would suggest that these elements of the system have been changed (but, as ever, open to correction by those who know more about current methods). And finally you can, with the appropriate knack, "break through" ticket gates - another Fennell recommendation IIRC. I have been known to "test" this facility on visits to Cubic's old place at Merstham. I think they just liked to see the client do some work. I was quite aware that the original complaint that prompted this thread refereed to an LU managed station and not a National Rail station run by a franchised TOC. My comment was to highlight that in this instance it seems as LUs standards are actually worse with regards to automatic ticket gates than those which apply to the National Rail network - which is not usually the case when it comes to considering passengers. Also, as I said 'attendance' of the gates by staff on the National Rail Network can quite legitimately be done from a single place on the station well away from the gates themselves - even the ticket office. All that is required is a suitable video & communication link for passengers having difficulty to be able liaise with the member of staff, plus said member of staff being able to remotely control said gates. Again LU may not allow this method of operation and require a staff member to physically be present at every set of gates thus making the National Rail arrangement look 'unattended' by comparison |
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Post by jacks on Oct 20, 2016 9:16:22 GMT
I'm not sure, but aren't most help points on the platforms rather than ticket halls? Yes. You also get them in passageways and places like that, but I don't recall ever seeing one in a ticket hall - presumably the theory going that there will always be a member of staff visible and available to help should it be required. Real life doesn't match theory though - it must have been 2008 the first time I saw a problem of this nature (in that case the person who wasn't being let through the gates automatically preferred to vault the barriers rather than return to the platform to find a help point). Since 2008 the number of times I've seen apparently staff-free ticket halls has significantly increased in frequency so I can only presume it is more common now. There are help points in the ticket halls of the stations I'm most familiar with (Leicester Sq & Covent), albeit only one at Leicester Sq compared to three on each platform if I'm remembering correctly. And that still wouldn't be useful to people unable to exit as the help point is outside of the barriers |
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Post by stapler on Oct 20, 2016 15:01:15 GMT
Snoggle, you are quite right about breaking through. Not recommended if you've just had a hip replacement op, I understand. Ilford is where it generally happens to me.
At Chelmsford this morning, probably because of disruption caused by track problems near Stratford (lots of cancellations/curtailments)the gates were all open with 3 attendants looking on, but punters were still putting their tickets into the slots.
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Post by rsdworker on Oct 24, 2016 1:34:14 GMT
the remote gates - i have seen this in use in various NR stations - there is help point next to gates with special camera on box that allows staff see ticket without having to come to gate
so once show the ticket to camera and speak to staff and staff press the open gate and let us go through
there is similar version to manual gates nut worked differently - at Hillingdon Station - the clerk behind ticket window pressed release gate the orange light flashed on top of manual gate post to show that gate was unlocked (before automatic wide gates)
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Post by njr001 on Oct 29, 2016 8:54:19 GMT
Just checked Ricky no help points and what used to be a yellow plunger to release gates has been replaced with a glass which needs to be broken.
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