class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 8, 2016 7:15:27 GMT
Snoggle, why are Oystercards having to be changed over, and when will this happen? Likely to cause chaos at KXSP and Heathrow, as tourists turn up with 2006 Oysters unused for a decade. Also, where can we find more information about these new cards? |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2016 9:18:49 GMT
It was a manifesto commitment. It was accidentally revealed at the Assembly T'Port Ctte two months ago that London Travelwatch were likely to be doing the review work. Given they have a long standing commitment to opposing ticket office closures or reductions in hours it will be interesting to see how they do this work. They were also outraged that LU / TfL, no doubt under Mayoral instruction, refused to conduct a public consultation on the TO closure plans so they did their own! Even if LTW do support / propose the reinstatement of ticket offices at some locations I've no idea where the money will come from to unpick the mad dash approach to removing ticket offices from public view. I suspect there may be an "element" within TfL who might quite like to see some ticket offices put back as there is the likely need to swap people's Oyster Cards from the current design to the new one at some point in 2017/18. Trying to do that with roving staff at ticket machines is a hiding to nothing as you need to swap over PAYG balances, registration details, discounts, season tickets etc etc from the old card to the new one and link back to any account. Having a core of ticket offices perhaps supplemented by roving facilities would provide a better basis from which to do the card conversion task. I still think a smallish network of "TfL Shops" that offer a whole range of TfL services including public transport ticketing, information, other payments is a perfectly viable concept and need not just be at tube stations. Snoggle, why are Oystercards having to be changed over, and when will this happen? Likely to cause chaos at KXSP and Heathrow, as tourists turn up with 2006 Oysters unused for a decade. My understanding, and please note I may be wrong, is that when TfL upgrade the Oyster system in 2018 that the system concept changes from the card holding the PAYG, any discount entitlement and any season ticket and the central system mirroring this to one where the card is merely a "token" which triggers a transaction record which is sent to the new central system (as used by contactless payments). The "back office system" (wish I knew what TfL call it!) will then collate all the transactions and work out what value has been added during a day plus all the journeys undertaken and then deduct the value from the balance. As the new cards are effectively "dumb" all the clever stuff about weekly capping, more discounts, unlimited rides for Hopper tickets, more "zones" to cater for Crossrail to Reading are all in the central system. The card is no longer the constraint. I imagine TfL will run both systems (clever and dumb Oyster) side by side for a considerable period BUT people retaining old style cards won't have access to certain products and features. It's why we only have weekly PAYG capping on contactless payment cards today. Oyster can't do it because the card concept of calculation at the ticket gate cannot cope with the complexities of working out a weekly cap. Furthermore the card can't contain a full week's history of usage. Ergo it's impossible for current Oyster to make this calculation. Please note I am making an assumption that the Future Ticketing Project requires a card swap over. I may be wrong but I spoke with someone with better contacts than me recently who certainly mentioned that TfL were thinking about how to manage a card swap process. If TfL had found a way to make current Oyster cards function solely as a "token" and not calculate a balance at each validation I expect they'd have put it into use by now. There are two questions to the Mayor next week about weekly capping on Oyster and asking why Boris's promise to introduce it in 2015 was not met - the answers will be very interesting. |
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Post by trt on Sept 8, 2016 10:02:45 GMT
Seeing as how each Oystercard has a unique ID number and can be blacklisted or whitelisted, the backend calculations of the charge to apply to an Oyster with a linked credit/debit account should be relatively easy. There's not enough time or electricity to have the Oystercard do any sums whatsoever - it can read and write (probably NAND) based registers with a set of values - there's likely to be time for only four or five such values to be transacted. With a fast enough backend one could read the ID, decide if it's operating on the new (remote) or old (local) system, and return the appropriate values to the card, either the traditional Oyster set or simply a balance of £10.00 perpetually, and the funds for the journey deducted at the back-office as with contactless cards. The clever stuff with Oyster is done in a gateline control box - the constraints on how much data can be transacted in the fleeting contact time of the card really produces a masterfully concise and ingenious system. The modern way of thinking is record everything and throw computing power at it; the older ways encourage one to look at the design of the system to rationalise and simplify.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 8, 2016 10:14:40 GMT
My understanding, and please note I may be wrong, is that when TfL upgrade the Oyster system in 2018 that the system concept changes from the card holding the PAYG, any discount entitlement and any season ticket and the central system mirroring this to one where the card is merely a "token" which triggers a transaction record which is sent to the new central system (as used by contactless payments). The "back office system" (wish I knew what TfL call it!) will then collate all the transactions and work out what value has been added during a day plus all the journeys undertaken and then deduct the value from the balance. As the new cards are effectively "dumb" all the clever stuff about weekly capping, more discounts, unlimited rides for Hopper tickets, more "zones" to cater for Crossrail to Reading are all in the central system. The card is no longer the constraint. I imagine TfL will run both systems (clever and dumb Oyster) side by side for a considerable period BUT people retaining old style cards won't have access to certain products and features. It's why we only have weekly PAYG capping on contactless payment cards today. Oyster can't do it because the card concept of calculation at the ticket gate cannot cope with the complexities of working out a weekly cap. Furthermore the card can't contain a full week's history of usage. Ergo it's impossible for current Oyster to make this calculation. Please note I am making an assumption that the Future Ticketing Project requires a card swap over. I may be wrong but I spoke with someone with better contacts than me recently who certainly mentioned that TfL were thinking about how to manage a card swap process. If TfL had found a way to make current Oyster cards function solely as a "token" and not calculate a balance at each validation I expect they'd have put it into use by now. There are two questions to the Mayor next week about weekly capping on Oyster and asking why Boris's promise to introduce it in 2015 was not met - the answers will be very interesting. In technical terms, there is no reason whatsoever that old oyster cards cannot work with a more intelligent system (unless they actually change the way the cards communicate with the gates, etc., [and it's extremely unlikely that they would not make that backwards compatible]) All the newer system needs is a unique Id and it can then tell the card whatever it likes, since any other information on the card is irrelevant. |
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Post by trt on Sept 8, 2016 10:20:45 GMT
Loving it, Class411. "All the newer system needs is a unique Id and it can then tell the card whatever it likes, since any other information on the card is irrelevant." What I said, only far shorter and sweeter. I'm well known for waffling.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2016 11:40:03 GMT
Loving it, Class411. "All the newer system needs is a unique Id and it can then tell the card whatever it likes, since any other information on the card is irrelevant." What I said, only far shorter and sweeter. I'm well known for waffling. I understand what you are both saying but I don't think you're correct. I don't think a great debate on here would benefit anyone so I'll happily retire to the side lines and hopefully some time between now and 2018 we might find out some more about what's going on. If someone *does* know the detail of what's being done I'm happy to be educated. (note I am not suggesting either of you don't know  ) |
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Post by trt on Sept 8, 2016 12:33:03 GMT
I know that in 2008 the MiFARE RFID cards were shown to be easily compromised due to an inherent weakness in their cryptographic key generation and were replaced with MiFARE Plus which utilised AES 128 encryption (requiring an upgrade to the card reader systems). This enables the system to verify that the cards are genuine and not clones.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 8, 2016 13:21:36 GMT
I understand what you are both saying but I don't think you're correct. I'm not making any comment about what TFL are actually doing, just on what is technically feasible. Clearly, since they are moving the intelligence from the card/gate to the gate/back end, all that is required from the card is an index (key) to access the account associated with it. |
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Post by trt on Sept 8, 2016 13:48:23 GMT
I understand what you are both saying but I don't think you're correct. I'm not making any comment about what TFL are actually doing, just on what is technically feasible. Clearly, since they are moving the intelligence from the card/gate to the gate/back end, all that is required from the card is an index (key) to access the account associated with it. And, obviously, that index has to be in some way protected against cloning and/or other abuses and failures. Which they already have in the RFID handshakes (apparently the 10th transaction between card and reader is where the encrypted transactions start taking place - there's a heck of more to-ing and fro-ing in plain text than I thought!) |
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Post by mattdickinson on Sept 8, 2016 15:46:20 GMT
What is also interesting is how customers will be advised that they need to top up when the balance will no longer be displayed at the gateline or on bus ticket machines.
I think that the "one more journey" function will have to be extended to the tube.
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Post by trt on Sept 8, 2016 15:58:32 GMT
The fare charged under the central resolution model is done at 4:30am. Thus when insufficient funds are available, the card will simply stop operating the next day. This must mean the end of the anonymous dispenser model of Oyster cards unless the minimum value on an anonymous dispensed card covers the maximum daily cap - otherwise every day you'd buy an anonymous £10 Oyster card to travel in from Shenfield or Watford and just junk it at the end of the day. I think the system will have to retain the current double-headed local and central transaction resolution modes unless they plan to end anonymous Oyster altogether. Maybe the old and the new Oyster cards are the MiFAIR Classic and MiFAIR Plus cards? I can see them turning off Classic support in the near future.
EDIT: To avoid too much thread drift, I think that if the "New Oyster" is simply the transferral of Classic card balances to Plus cards, then there won't be that many of them left, so doing it "on-the-floor" rather than at a ticket office window won't be a continuous headache.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 8, 2016 16:08:41 GMT
What is also interesting is how customers will be advised that they need to top up when the balance will no longer be displayed at the gateline or on bus ticket machines. I think that the "one more journey" function will have to be extended to the tube. So you are suggesting that the rail functionality of checking for the PAYG balance being at least equal to the minimum fare available from the starting station will have to be modified to allow people to start a rail journey on PAYG provided the balance is positive? That's the only thing I think TfL would need to tweak in order to match what happens on buses. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 8, 2016 16:13:28 GMT
I'm not making any comment about what TFL are actually doing, just on what is technically feasible. Clearly, since they are moving the intelligence from the card/gate to the gate/back end, all that is required from the card is an index (key) to access the account associated with it. And, obviously, that index has to be in some way protected against cloning and/or other abuses and failures. Which they already have in the RFID handshakes (apparently the 10th transaction between card and reader is where the encrypted transactions start taking place - there's a heck of more to-ing and fro-ing in plain text than I thought!) comms protocols for real word systems relating to money or other value have to have very sophisticated anti-fraud and fail-safe systems built in. None of that alters the fact that all these systems need is a key. Of course, it is a failing of the TFL system that it never checks that the presenter of the card is actually entitled to use it. But that seems to be accepted by just about everyone. As indeed it is for contactless payment in general. |
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Post by mattdickinson on Sept 8, 2016 16:28:26 GMT
The fare charged under the central resolution model is done at 4:30am. Thus when insufficient funds are available, the card will simply stop operating the next day. This must mean the end of the anonymous dispenser model of Oyster cards unless the minimum value on an anonymous dispensed card covers the maximum daily cap - otherwise every day you'd buy an anonymous £10 Oyster card to travel in from Shenfield or Watford and just junk it at the end of the day. I think the system will have to retain the current double-headed local and central transaction resolution modes unless they plan to end anonymous Oyster altogether. Maybe the old and the new Oyster cards are the MiFAIR Classic and MiFAIR Plus cards? I can see them turning off Classic support in the near future. EDIT: To avoid too much thread drift, I think that if the "New Oyster" is simply the transferral of Classic card balances to Plus cards, then there won't be that many of them left, so doing it "on-the-floor" rather than at a ticket office window won't be a continuous headache. The only way I can see it working for anonymous cards is for central resolution fares to be processed after each journey, rather than at 4.30am the next day with contactless. This would still take most of the processing load off the gateline. At the moment gates and bus ticket machines are updated with a Deny list if the 10p Contactless transaction made on the first usage each day fails. For Oyster there would have to be a Warn list (top up before next journey) transmitted after each journey calculation also. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 8, 2016 16:54:48 GMT
Phasing out of all Mifare cards is already underway, in a roundabout manner. A recent software modification has removed the ability to refund Mifare cards using the self-service functionality, although it is retained on the TOM. Staff are also encouraged to replicate any Mifare cards encountered with a new Desfire variant, although in practice this isn't something there is necessarily the time to do. It tends to only crop up if the card is starting to fail (i.e. reads intermittently).
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Post by will on Sept 8, 2016 17:18:12 GMT
They really need to reinstate ticket offices in major National Rail stations like Euston and Kings Cross that have been chaos since their withdrawal with huge queues everywhere blocking the ticket hall. They could also do with reinstating them at the major tourist stations as ticket office staff will always be much faster than a tourist who doesn't know which Northern Line branch is which never mind what type of ticket they need.
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Post by stapler on Sept 8, 2016 17:39:03 GMT
Will is quite right. Heathrow, all the London termini, Stratford, Oxford Circus etc are in dire need.
ASIUI. one of the reasons for their closure was to avoid the cash routine, so they could probably be made card payment only.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 8, 2016 17:48:27 GMT
Of course, it is a failing of the TFL system that it never checks that the presenter of the card is actually entitled to use it. No different from cash - that can be stolen too. Or indeed forged. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2016 20:00:11 GMT
They could have simply produced an TFL ITSO Card for replacing the old Oysters with!
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 9, 2016 8:56:20 GMT
Phasing out of all Mifare cards is already underway, in a roundabout manner. A recent software modification has removed the ability to refund Mifare cards using the self-service functionality, although it is retained on the TOM. Staff are also encouraged to replicate any Mifare cards encountered with a new Desfire variant, although in practice this isn't something there is necessarily the time to do. It tends to only crop up if the card is starting to fail (i.e. reads intermittently). How does someone tell what type of card they have? Or is this only for station staff to be able to do? The card which I have that is registered is almost certainly one of the oldest types, from circa 2003. Maybe in the future (when present-day Oyster cards have all been phased out) it will prove to be valuable as a memento, in the same way as some people collect Edmundson card and other types of tickets! Simon |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 9, 2016 11:16:38 GMT
No different from cash - that can be stolen too. Yes, but if you drop a £5 note and don't notice, you've lost £5. If you drop a contactless cc/dc you'll lose up to the amount set . If you drop an Oyster and don't notice, you could end up losing quite a bit. Or you could lose nothing at all, depending how quickly you report the loss. |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 9, 2016 11:36:46 GMT
Yes, but if you drop a £5 note and don't notice, you've lost £5. If you drop a contactless cc/dc you'll lose up to the amount set . If you drop an Oyster and don't notice, you could end up losing quite a bit. Or you could lose nothing at all, depending how quickly you report the loss. did say "if you drop... and don't notice". |
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Post by mattdickinson on Sept 9, 2016 11:52:36 GMT
Phasing out of all Mifare cards is already underway, in a roundabout manner. A recent software modification has removed the ability to refund Mifare cards using the self-service functionality, although it is retained on the TOM. Staff are also encouraged to replicate any Mifare cards encountered with a new Desfire variant, although in practice this isn't something there is necessarily the time to do. It tends to only crop up if the card is starting to fail (i.e. reads intermittently). How does someone tell what type of card they have? Or is this only for station staff to be able to do? The card which I have that is registered is almost certainly one of the oldest types, from circa 2003. Maybe in the future (when present-day Oyster cards have all been phased out) it will prove to be valuable as a memento, in the same way as some people collect Edmundson card and other types of tickets! Simon MiFare Desfire Oyster cards have a white on blue D on the reverse of the card An example:  |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 9, 2016 14:06:28 GMT
Yes, but if you drop a £5 note and don't notice, you've lost £5. If you drop a contactless cc/dc you'll lose up to the amount set . If you drop an Oyster and don't notice, you could end up losing quite a bit. Or you could lose nothing at all, depending how quickly you report the loss. Well, as we seem to be covering all the bases, I'm pretty sure that you'll lose the deposit on an Oyster card. No matter how quickly you noticed. [PEDATNMODE]Unless you noticed it quickly enough that you managed to find it and pick it up before it disappeared.[/PEDANTMODE] |
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Post by silenthunter on Sept 9, 2016 15:23:58 GMT
Meanwhile plenty of pretty lightly used stations across Britain still maintain a booking office service, yet at present LU deems it uneconomic to provide such a service even at the busiest locations. Funny old world at times. In the MerseyTravel area every station has a member of staff present from first to last train. The Booking Clerk at my nearest station doubled his weekly sales when I bought my All Line Rover the other year! Emerson Park on the Overground has someone present nearly all the time, but I don't think he has anywhere to go on a cold or rainy day. Also, but it must be quite boring at times. |
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 9, 2016 16:02:43 GMT
Or you could lose nothing at all, depending how quickly you report the loss. Well, as we seem to be covering all the bases, I'm pretty sure that you'll lose the deposit on an Oyster card. No matter how quickly you noticed. Different people report different things on this one. Sometimes the deposit is lost, other times it is added as PAYG to any replacement. It seems to depend entirely on the person on the other end of the phone. |
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Post by North End on Sept 9, 2016 21:40:24 GMT
In the MerseyTravel area every station has a member of staff present from first to last train. The Booking Clerk at my nearest station doubled his weekly sales when I bought my All Line Rover the other year! Emerson Park on the Overground has someone present nearly all the time, but I don't think he has anywhere to go on a cold or rainy day. Also, but it must be quite boring at times. I think the Emerson Park person generally travels with the train, stopping off to update the whiteboards at the staton, and perhaps sometimes remaining on the station between trains. At least that was what was happening when I went there a few months back. He also tried to stop me taking photos but I suitably advised him to the contrary and carried on. |
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Post by superteacher on Sept 10, 2016 11:04:57 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 10, 2016 23:16:31 GMT
Thanks for the photo. My LU150 branded Oystercard has that D symbol.
Simon
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Post by mattdickinson on Sept 22, 2016 16:23:52 GMT
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