class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 1, 2016 11:00:06 GMT
I'm sure I should know the answer to this already, but if I ever knew I've forgotten:
Why does the Heathrow end of the Piccadilly Line use a loop, rather than just a more normal terminating arrangement?
Had they known about Terminal 5 when this loop was designed, would they still have gone down the loop route?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 1, 2016 11:45:00 GMT
I'm sure I should know the answer to this already, but if I ever knew I've forgotten: Why does the Heathrow end of the Piccadilly Line use a loop, rather than just a more normal terminating arrangement? Had they known about Terminal 5 when this loop was designed, would they still have gone down the loop route? We have had a discussion before about this, although it was a while ago: T4 loopIt was the easiest way to connect the existing infrastructure at Hatton Cross and Heathrow Central, with a station at T4. Services at opening in 1986 were that all services ran around the loop. Passive provision for another station was provided in the loop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 11:48:10 GMT
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Post by will on Sept 1, 2016 11:48:24 GMT
They thought when the airport was expanded that the new Heathrow Terminal 5 station would be on the loop as well as T4. That's why there is a straight section of tunnel that's built bigger than the rest to allow a platform to be built if required and this explains why the loop is far longer than really necessary. When Heathrow Airport built the new T5 they built it further west than anticipated hence the supr as it was thought unnecessary / to difficult to extend the loop from T4 to the new station and back to T1,2,3.
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Sept 1, 2016 14:48:45 GMT
Does TFL pay an access charge to enter Heathrow?
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Post by will on Sept 1, 2016 15:58:41 GMT
Does TFL pay an access charge to enter Heathrow? I am 99% sure that LUL owns all the infrastructure and therefore doesn't have to pay access charges whereas the National Rail lines were paid for by Heathrow and they charge an access fee to recover the costs of construction/operation.
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Post by domh245 on Sept 1, 2016 16:01:55 GMT
Does TFL pay an access charge to enter Heathrow? I don't think so. The Piccadilly line tunnels are owned by TfL, so there is no reason why they would have to pay to use their own infrastructure. The Mainline tunnels are owned by BAA Heathrow Airport Holdings however, so there will be some kind of charge for the crossrail services (which may or may not be discounted or something, snoggle might know more?)
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Post by snoggle on Sept 1, 2016 17:03:18 GMT
Does TFL pay an access charge to enter Heathrow? I don't think so. The Piccadilly line tunnels are owned by TfL, so there is no reason why they would have to pay to use their own infrastructure. The Mainline tunnels are owned by BAA Heathrow Airport Holdings however, so there will be some kind of charge for the crossrail services (which may or may not be discounted or something, snoggle might know more?) You need to be clear what you are talking about at Heathrow. I think this is correct but it may have changed since I last had access to the detail. Hatton Cross - T123 - owned by LU Hatton Cross - T4 - T123 loop - owned by LU. The freehold to the station at T4 is with the Airport not LU. T123 - T5 tunnels and station - financed via a form of PFI deal. LU pays a 4 weekly fee to Heathrow Airport based on the level of usage of the airport. There is a very involved and complex mathematical model that I never quite got my head round about determining the payment levels. Clearly LU took a decision NOT to charge a premium fare into T5 but budgets for the cost of reimbursing HAL separately from the identifiable revenue stream into the airport. HAL run the T5 tube station and I believe they own the tunnels, station and overrun. LU has responsibility for track and signals maintenance and repair and possibly tunnel vent (can't remember the detail on that). At some point the infrastructure will be paid for and I honestly can't recall what happens then in terms of ownership of the tunnels and station. Clearly the situation for Heathrow Express / Heathrow Connect is different. HAL owns the tunnels and stations and has rights as infrastructure owner to levy charges to operators accessing that infrastructure. That's in line with national policy whereby infrastructure operation and maintenance is divorced from train operation (on the main line network). HAL have been trying to charge an extortionate amount for each proposed Crossrail train intended to serve the Airport. In effect it was trying to recoup its capital and financing costs for the tunnel link more than twice over (given Heathrow Express generates a revenue stream to part pay for the link and Heathrow Connect (in future Crossrail) also pays. I believe Office of Rail and Road took an extremely dim view of the proposed charges and the Govt were beyond "unimpressed". The proposed charge level has been dismissed but the issue has not gone away. A long time ago I read a report I've never been able to find again which indicated that Crossrail (via the applicable legislation) were locked into paying a level of charge to HAL commensurate with the volume of train service operated and not dissimilar to what Heathrow Connect pays. This implies the charging of a premium fare to Heathrow to the public using Crossrail (as happens with H'row Connect). However there is a multitude of issues whirling round - how do you make Oyster / Contactless work at Heathrow, you can't gate the HAL platforms as it prevents the "free flow" free travel between terminals, the Mayor has a fares freeze, politicians want Crossrail to reach T5 and not T4, Heathrow wants to build a bigger airport, HAL needs to keep people using Heathrow Express for as long as possible to pay back the financing and capital cost of the tunnels. In short it's a great big mealstrom of "big boys" politics with an awful lot of stake and conflicting agendas. I'll be amazed if anything approaching an "elegant solution" emerges by the time we get to get to May 2018 when Crossrail take over Heathrow Connect.
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Post by phil on Sept 1, 2016 17:05:52 GMT
Does TFL pay an access charge to enter Heathrow? I don't think so. The Piccadilly line tunnels are owned by TfL, so there is no reason why they would have to pay to use their own infrastructure. The Mainline tunnels are owned by BAA Heathrow Airport Holdings however, so there will be some kind of charge for the crossrail services (which may or may not be discounted or something, snoggle might know more?) However I believe that the T5 spur itself is actually owned by the airport. Please remember that at the time it was constructed the Government were very keen on such deals so as to reduce the Treasury's exposure to construction costs (originally the mainline tunnels were planned to be a 50 / 50 joint venture between BAA and BR, till BAA offered to help smooth the railway privatisation process by taking on full ownership of the tunnels and the HEX rolling stock). The original line to T1,2& 3, plus the subsequent T4 loop being built by LU via a Central Government grant so are owned by them.
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Post by domh245 on Sept 1, 2016 21:29:48 GMT
Thanks for that snoggle! Very interesting read as always. I can't say that I'm entirely surprised that the situation is as muddy as it is though.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 2, 2016 7:52:31 GMT
I've read the responses, and links, but I'm still none the wiser as to why they chose a loop, rather than simply extending the the line in a curvilinear fashion. (Admittedly the line would have ended up somewhat squiggly given where they built T5.)
Although topologically, the lines at the northern end of the central line are, diagrammatically, the same, in reality the Heathrow extension is the only part of The Underground to adopt this solution.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 2, 2016 8:02:57 GMT
I've read the responses, and links, but I'm still none the wiser as to why they chose a loop, rather than simply extending the the line in a curvilinear fashion. (Admittedly the line would have ended up somewhat squiggly given where they built T5.) Although topologically, the lines at the northern end of the central line are, diagrammatically, the same, in reality the Heathrow extension is the only part of The Underground to adopt this solution. And the loop at Kennington of course.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 2, 2016 9:06:32 GMT
Historically there were also loops at White City and Embankment
Given the location of T4 and the then-expected location of T5, there was no ideal solution, but a single track loop was probably cheaper than a double track extension looping round from T123, and better than two separate branches diverging at Hatton Cross as it maximised the number of trains serving each terminal.
With the location of T5 later changed, we now have an unhappy compromise.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 2, 2016 13:12:55 GMT
I've read the responses, and links, but I'm still none the wiser as to why they chose a loop, rather than simply extending the the line in a curvilinear fashion. (Admittedly the line would have ended up somewhat squiggly given where they built T5.) Although topologically, the lines at the northern end of the central line are, diagrammatically, the same, in reality the Heathrow extension is the only part of The Underground to adopt this solution. And the loop at Kennington of course. Now you may begin to see why pedantry is so necessary whenever your post something on the internet. Although I'd added 'topologically', 'lines', and 'diagrammatically' (and changed linear to curvilinear) to fend off pedantic 'corrections', I missed specifying terminus and I missed specifying 'currently'. One is picked up barely ten minutes later and the other within a couple of hours. Clearly I've got a lot to learn before my pedantry is a match for t'internet.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 2, 2016 14:26:21 GMT
And the loop at Kennington of course. Now you may begin to see why pedantry is so necessary whenever your post something on the internet. Although I'd added 'topologically', 'lines', and 'diagrammatically' (and changed linear to curvilinear) to fend off pedantic 'corrections', I missed specifying terminus and I missed specifying 'currently'. One is picked up barely ten minutes later and the other within a couple of hours. Clearly I've got a lot to learn before my pedantry is a match for t'internet. You're confusing pedantry with being pulled up for an incorrect statement 411! Never mind, it put a smile on my face all the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 15:03:26 GMT
Looking at a geographically correct tube map, there is no idea way to connect T1,2,3 with T4 and T5 in a sensible manner.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Sept 2, 2016 15:21:00 GMT
And in actuality, District Line services could be run as loops from either end around the "Circle". Actually, this could be advantageous, (IF it was sensibly thought through), in that drivers would never get stuck at the wrong end after a signal/points failure etc.
The key word above is "sensibly".
And that's why it would never happen.
"Sensibly" is a word not often understood by Crayonistas and self-anointed experts
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Post by phoenixcronin on Sept 2, 2016 15:36:20 GMT
Imagine what'll happen when Terminal 6 comes along!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 15:54:48 GMT
Imagine what'll happen when Terminal 6 comes along! I guess they will need a spur going off after T2 and 3
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 2, 2016 17:58:10 GMT
Imagine what'll happen when Terminal 6 comes along! I thought they were doing away with terminal numbers and going back to names?
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Post by domh245 on Sept 2, 2016 18:06:04 GMT
Imagine what'll happen when Terminal 6 comes along! I thought they were doing away with terminal numbers and going back to names? Terminal six then?
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North End
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Post by North End on Sept 3, 2016 7:08:04 GMT
Historically there were also loops at White City and Embankment Given the location of T4 and the then-expected location of T5, there was no ideal solution, but a single track loop was probably cheaper than a double track extension looping round from T123, and better than two separate branches diverging at Hatton Cross as it maximised the number of trains serving each terminal. With the location of T5 later changed, we now have an unhappy compromise. I've heard it said that T5 was built in the always-planned location, but the design was such that the terminal building was close to the west perimeter with the satellites near the T4 Loop. No idea if plans changed, but had the terminal been constructed the "other way round" then the T4 Loop would have been nearer the terminal. Can anyone confirm or deny this or shed more light?
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 3, 2016 10:14:11 GMT
I thought they were doing away with terminal numbers and going back to names? Terminal six then? The Terminal 5 station would become Heathrow West and serve Terminal 6 as well. Previously it was planned that Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 would revert to Heathrow Central but the latest BAA images show Heathrow East,
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 3, 2016 10:23:24 GMT
The Terminal 5 station would become Heathrow West and serve Terminal 6 as well. Previously it was planned that Heathrow Terminals 1,2,3 would revert to Heathrow Central but the latest BAA images show Heathrow East, Which just leaves the T4 station, Heathrow South?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2016 11:54:06 GMT
This possible renaming of the Heathrow stations is interesting. Does anyone know how likely this is to happen, and if so, when it might be scheduled for?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 3, 2016 12:35:24 GMT
This possible renaming of the Heathrow stations is interesting. Does anyone know how likely this is to happen, and if so, when it might be scheduled for? I doubt it will happen. I'm pretty sure that TPTB will much prefer to keep the completely unambiguous tie in between the station names and the terminals they serve. Any other clutter is just a distraction, particularly for people for whom English is unfamiliar. Of course, if they renamed the terminals ...
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Post by silenthunter on Sept 3, 2016 21:16:40 GMT
This possible renaming of the Heathrow stations is interesting. Does anyone know how likely this is to happen, and if so, when it might be scheduled for? It has already begun; now T1 has closed, the station has become Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3. T1 and T3 are due to be demolished and replaced by a larger T2; which I suspect may be called by its other name The Queen's Terminal. Heathrow Queen's Terminal is a good name for the station, but that's by no means official.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 4, 2016 0:24:17 GMT
It has already begun; now T1 has closed, the station has become Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3. Only on the Tube map. There's no change to station signage, DMIs, line diagrams, or even the TfL website. Someone has badly jumped the gun, but it's clear that the station is anything but 'confirmed' as 2+3.
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Sept 4, 2016 7:09:23 GMT
I am absolutely certain I once saw a train approaching which said just Heathrow on it and I've also seen one which used the "@" symbol in the name too!
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Post by phil on Sept 4, 2016 8:14:59 GMT
It has already begun; now T1 has closed, the station has become Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3. Only on the Tube map. There's no change to station signage, DMIs, line diagrams, or even the TfL website. Someone has badly jumped the gun, but it's clear that the station is anything but 'confirmed' as 2+3. To be far is it really that much of an issue? If the real T1 has ceased to exist all that means is you won't get travellers looking for 'T1' as part of the signage. Similarly if T2 or T3 went and closed then the name "Heathrow T1, T2, T3" would still provide the information travellers need. However if a newly named terminal was opened, e.g. "The Queens Terminal" but the station name made no reference to it (i.e. stayed as "Heathrow T1, T2, T3 ", then yes problems could arise.
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