class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 16, 2016 10:11:27 GMT
I'm not at all au fait with LO terminology - apart from Goblin, of course.
Would it be reasonable to refer to Clapham Junction to Highbury and Islington via Shepherd's Bush and Highbury and Islington to Clapham Junction via Dalston Junction as the 'Main Loop'?
And the remaining termini (except the Goblin which does not appear to be physically attached to the rest) as, e.g. the 'Richmond Spur'?
Or are there other recognised ways of referring to these lines and part lines.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Aug 16, 2016 10:20:00 GMT
I've never ever heard of anyone using "Main Loop" or "Spurs", and I don't think it would ever catch on.
I personally use GOBLIN, West/North London Line, East/South London Line, Watford DC, Lea Valley Lines and Romford Push-Pull
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 16, 2016 10:44:30 GMT
I've never ever heard of anyone using "Main Loop" or "Spurs", and I don't think it would ever catch on. I wasn't proposing it as a standard. I just wondered if there was some recognised way of describing the 'bits'. I've definitely heard part of it described as a loop, and this is certainly how it appears on the diagram - even if you can't travel round it on one train journey. The advantage of referring to it in the way I described - whether or not anyone else does, is that it is immediately apparent from looking at the diagram what you are talking about - even if you have never seen it, or heard of LO, before. The terms you use may mean something to people with a very good knowledge of LO and the geography through which it runs, but are pretty opaque to anyone else. (I'm still completely perplexed by 'Romford push-pull' - there is no station on LO called Romford, let alone a terminus.)
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Post by phoenixcronin on Aug 16, 2016 10:48:18 GMT
I've seen people referring to your "Main Loop" as the "Outer Circle Line", which I agree makes sense.
The Romford Push Pull is the Romford-Upminster Branch Line
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 16, 2016 11:05:27 GMT
I've seen people referring to your "Main Loop" as the "Outer Circle Line", which I agree makes sense. Ah, yes, that was it: 'Outer Circle'. I thought the name I recollected included 'outer' but I could not see any other loop on LO! I hadn't realised that LO included so much that is left off the tube map, until I dug further to find this Romford line (which, of course, means that Romford push-pull now makes perfect sense). I can see that there can easily be problems when people who's mental image of LO comes from the more complete map talk to those who's mental image comes from the Tube diagram.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 16, 2016 13:02:39 GMT
I hadn't realised that LO included so much that is left off the tube map, until I dug further to find this Romford line I can see that there can easily be problems when people who's mental image of LO comes from the more complete map talk to those who's mental image comes from the Tube diagram. To which diagram are you referring? The Romford Upminster line (Sometimes known as the Romster Line or the Emerson Line) does appear on the standard Tube diagram, and has done since TfL took it over last year, at the same time as the Chingford/Enfield group and the Shenfield line. linkYour "Lea Valley" group does not actually include the Lea Valley Line itself, which is the line through Ponders End used by longer distance Anglia services
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 16, 2016 15:50:17 GMT
I hadn't realised that LO included so much that is left off the tube map, until I dug further to find this Romford line. Hidden in plain sight for all to see. Often the most secretive place of all 411!
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2016 19:03:31 GMT
I'm not at all au fait with LO terminology - apart from Goblin, of course. Would it be reasonable to refer to Clapham Junction to Highbury and Islington via Shepherd's Bush and Highbury and Islington to Clapham Junction via Dalston Junction as the 'Main Loop'? And the remaining termini (except the Goblin which does not appear to be physically attached to the rest) as, e.g. the 'Richmond Spur'? Or are there other recognised ways of referring to these lines and part lines. NLL (North London line) ELL (East London line) WLL (West London line) SLL (South London line) - and yes I know TfL "purloined" that name and SLL used to refer to something quite different (Victoria - London Bridge). Watford DCs Chingford Line Enfield Line Cheshunt Line Romford - Upminster are the terms or names I use or have "picked up" over the years. I know some of them are very imprecise by some people's standards but they are the names that go back a long way before TfL even existed. Many are the longstanding names used by the user groups that were set up to fight for improvements to the services when things were very much worse than they are now.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 16, 2016 19:36:05 GMT
SLL (South London line) - and yes I know TfL "purloined" that name and SLL used to refer to something quite different (Victoria - London Bridge). . Not that different - the two ends may have been opened out, but from Queens Road Peckham to Wandsworth Road it follows the original route.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 16, 2016 20:15:02 GMT
SLL (South London line) - and yes I know TfL "purloined" that name and SLL used to refer to something quite different (Victoria - London Bridge). . Not that different - the two ends may have been opened out, but from Queens Road Peckham to Wandsworth Road it follows the original route. I know that but erred on the side of attempted accuracy. No matter how you phrase things on an enthusiasts' forum someone will pick up on something and feel the need to make a "correction" of some sort.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 16, 2016 21:59:46 GMT
Pedants, us; Surely not‽
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paulsw2
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Post by paulsw2 on Aug 17, 2016 1:03:13 GMT
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 17, 2016 7:37:33 GMT
I hadn't realised that LO included so much that is left off the tube map, until I dug further to find this Romford line. Hidden in plain sight for all to see. Often the most secretive place of all 411! Yes, I remembered going to update my local PDF map, this year, but forgot that I'd decided to stick with the old one for a while, because of all the extra crud they'd added. Thus I forgot that I was not looking at the latest incarnation. I really wish they'd produce an alternative version that just has the 'real' Underground on it. (Note, I did not say 'Tube' in case someone as pedantic as myself pointed out that it would the have to omit the SSL's )
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 17, 2016 11:07:50 GMT
Is the ELL core part of the "real" Underground? What about the Moorgate branch? Aylesbury? Is the JLE "extra crud?"
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Post by stapler on Aug 17, 2016 11:17:53 GMT
"Lea Valley lines", meaning Chingford and Enfield is very misleading. Let's avoid Lea valley, please!
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Post by snoggle on Aug 17, 2016 11:30:23 GMT
Is the ELL core part of the "real" Underground? What about the Moorgate branch? Aylesbury? Is the JLE "extra crud?" Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ( runs away screaming )
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 17, 2016 11:58:59 GMT
......someone as pedantic as myself........ I think you're getting into the realms of fantasy here 411..........
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2016 13:42:00 GMT
The question of line terminology is sometimes a tricky one. As per the earlier posts some of the lines have some historical titles such as the South London Line, however I believe that this was not very precise when talking about lines and in order to describe the lines and individual lines a system was derived which gave each section a reference. I am not sure what LUL do but on Network Rail each line is given a three letter code and sometimes a number following it to further split up long or complicated sections. For example BML1 is the Bournemouth Main Line between Waterloo (Main lines) and Southampton with BML2 being Southampton to Dorchester and BML3 being Dorchester to Weymouth.
I am pretty sure that when the East London Line was taken over by London Overground and became part of the national network that this became the ELL. There are some obvious ones for the LO lines with Clapham Junction (Falcon Junction) to Willesden being WLL. I do not have a complete list to hand and will need to do some further work to find them all, along with the line designations but I believe that all of the Engineers Line References (ELR) are shown in the Quail atlas's.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 17, 2016 14:36:11 GMT
Is the ELL core part of the "real" Underground? What about the Moorgate branch? Aylesbury? Is the JLE "extra crud?" Anything with a solid, single, line on the diagram is (in the specific context I'm talking about) 'proper' underground. Anything else is crud. Remember that that context is strictly personal, and is strictly related to a diagram I would like to see available in addition to the standard one. I think anyone who has been using the underground for decades knows exactly what constitutes the 'real' underground. I very much doubt if there would be much, if any, disagreement.
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Post by jukes on Aug 17, 2016 17:14:28 GMT
The ELL between a point just before the Dalston Western curve and a point(s) at NXG is TfL owned infrastructure. However it is maintained and signalled by NR under an agreement with the Infrastructure owner - TfL. The rest of LO infrastructure is all NR owned.
The Moorgate line was transferred to BR in 1975 after the Northern City Line ceased to operate - it is now NR owned as are all the platforms at Moorgate, Old Street (inc passageways) and Highbury. Essex Road and Drayton Park are wholly owned by NR.
Just for pedantic (semi-)completeness, the Wimbledon branch from just south of Putney Bridge station used to be BR owned but is now TfL owned but the signalling from that point and power supplies are still NR responsibility. The Richmond branch from a point near Turnham Green is NR owned and they operate the power and signalling. On the Watford DC line NR ownership starts/finishes either side of the North Car Shed at Queens Park, the only exception being Stonebridge Park depot from a point at the start of the reception roads.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Aug 17, 2016 20:36:43 GMT
The LO services are put out on concession, like the DLR (and tramlink possibly?), and crossrail/tfl rail. I'd hazard that what should constitute the 'real' tube is possibly characterized by services directly run by LUL. Though I don't know whether that nowadays includes the lines which gained new stock under PFI deals, like the northern and jubilee. Why not just be safe and say anything that has four rail electrification
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Post by redbond on Aug 18, 2016 9:06:35 GMT
The ELL between a point just before the Dalston Western curve and a point(s) at NXG is TfL owned infrastructure. However it is maintained and signalled by NR under an agreement with the Infrastructure owner - TfL. The rest of LO infrastructure is all NR owned. To be a bit more pedantic, the RfL owned part of the East London Line is maintained by Carillion, not Network Rail.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 18, 2016 11:06:57 GMT
The LO services are put out on concession, like the DLR (and tramlink possibly?), and crossrail/tfl rail. I'd hazard that what should constitute the 'real' tube is possibly characterized by services directly run by LUL. Though I don't know whether that nowadays includes the lines which gained new stock under PFI deals, like the northern and jubilee. Why not just be safe and say anything that has four rail electrification I would say that anyone who has used 'The Underground' reasonably widely over a decades or so will instinctively know what is the 'real' underground. It's more about look and feel that any made up definition. Two things that do distinctively and uniquely characterise the 'true' Underground are that the lines do not have any other public facing group name (DLR, LO, London Trams), and the aforementioned fact that they are all (and only they are) indicated by a thick, single, line on the diagram. Although, even then I'm sure there would be some pernickety points raised, particularly if you consider historical aspects: older diagrams and, particularly, the W&C line before it 'changed hands' and got new stock. ETA: Of course, we can simply appeal to the ultimate authority: District Dave's London Underground Forum. This helpfully groups together all the 'real' underground lines in the imaginatively named "London Underground Lines" forum index.
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Post by Alight on Aug 18, 2016 19:19:35 GMT
Nobody has referenced how TfL refer to the lines on their official Overground page: Outer London orbital network There are six London Overground routes that, together, form an outer London orbital network:
Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford Watford Junction to Euston Gospel Oak to Barking Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford Romford to Upminster
In other words, point-to-point is preferred. In fact my copy of the TfL style guide advises not to use 'North London Line' etc.
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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 19, 2016 8:17:50 GMT
Nobody has referenced how TfL refer to the lines on their official Overground page: Outer London orbital network There are six London Overground routes that, together, form an outer London orbital network: Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford Watford Junction to Euston Gospel Oak to Barking Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford Romford to Upminster In other words, point-to-point is preferred. In fact my copy of the TfL style guide advises not to use 'North London Line' etc. I didn't realise that Romford to Upminster was considered orbital?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2016 9:07:52 GMT
I didn't realise that Romford to Upminster was considered orbital? It forms the eastern leg of the Hornchurch, Loxford and West Ham orbital, the District Line is the south side, Jubilee and DLR on the west and TfL Rail the north.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 19, 2016 9:21:18 GMT
Nobody has referenced how TfL refer to the lines on their official Overground page: Outer London orbital network There are six London Overground routes that, together, form an outer London orbital network: Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford Watford Junction to Euston Gospel Oak to Barking Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford Romford to Upminster Somewhat tongue in cheek then, we have: The Stratmond and Clapford lines The Watston line The Goblin The Higham and Clapbury lines The Chingpool line and The Romster line
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 19, 2016 11:08:32 GMT
Somewhat tongue in cheek then, we have: The Watston line I prefer "Wat Eus" Most people who know the line at all would understand what is meant by the "Emerson Line"
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Post by rapidtransitman on Aug 19, 2016 14:23:23 GMT
Nobody has referenced how TfL refer to the lines on their official Overground page: Outer London orbital network There are six London Overground routes that, together, form an outer London orbital network: Richmond/Clapham Junction to Stratford Watford Junction to Euston Gospel Oak to Barking Highbury & Islington to West Croydon/Clapham Junction Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford Romford to Upminster In other words, point-to-point is preferred. In fact my copy of the TfL style guide advises not to use 'North London Line' etc. This doesn't make much sense, as all other TfL rail lines are given simple names. Furthermore, Underground lines have had 'official' names in the past (the Baker Street & Waterloo), that common use has caused the powers that be to change the line name accordingly, hence the Bakerloo. In the case of the Overground, there are well known historical names that are used much more than these long, confusing point to point line descriptions - The East, North, West, and South London lines, as well as very popular nicknames - the GOBLIN. Common usage wins out eventually.
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Post by redbond on Aug 20, 2016 9:38:29 GMT
Officially it's the East London Railway from Highbury to New Cross Gate, it's used in all publications and we even have the East London Line signal box. The signals are prefixed EL, such as the North London Line uses NL prefix for those controlled by Upminster. These two definitely won't change.
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