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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 13:12:30 GMT
I am currently writing some horror/mystery fiction set in the London Underground, and making use of its long history. I have done a lot of research and am keen to get as many facts right as possible.
Would any members be able to help with these technical questions please?
1) What actually happens onboard a Tube train when the passenger alarm is pulled?
2) Does the passenger alarm work if power to the train is interrupted?
3) Do the emergency lights automatically come on if power is interrupted? If so, can these ever be switched off?
4) Can a driver open all doors on a train, in every car and on both sides? If so, is it possible for this to happen while the train is in a tunnel?
5) Is the door to an empty driver’s cabin at the back of a train locked?
Please note that these questions relate to a story set on the Piccadilly Line, so the trains involved are refurbished 1973 stock. The story is also set on the Night Tube in 2017 which I don’t think will make any difference to the answers, but if so please let me know.
I am also looking for kind people willing to be beta-readers, both for this short story and the novel to come. I would be happy to provide free copies in return for feedback and especially for fact-checking, to make sure it is as authentic as possible.
Thank you in advance!
David
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 15:18:42 GMT
4) Can a driver open all doors on a train, in every car and on both sides? If so, is it possible for this to happen while the train is in a tunnel? I'll have a go at this one. By all doors, I'm assuming you mean all the passenger doors (to be pedantic). I mean, they could open all the cab doors in their cab as well, but to open them all in the back cab would require them to walk all the way along the train to the back cab and open them from there (so the answer's still yes, but not from the front cab). Also the inter-connecting doors between cars would have to be done manually, walking all the way along the train, a driver couldn't do it from the cab. But yes, where you have platforms on both sides, the doors on both sides can be opened if the CSDE is configured for that without any kind of hackery at all. Indeed I believe it does happen at Arnos Grove that the doors will be opened on both sides of the train in platform 2/3, where there's a platform on both sides of the train. However, this is not usually done at Cockfosters or Uxbridge. Assuming, however, that everything on the train is functioning, no you cannot open any passenger doors on the train when it is in a tunnel, or else not stopped in a platform. If, however, you were to disable or override the relevant equipment, you presumably could. Hard to see why you would. |
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Post by domh245 on Jul 5, 2016 15:36:51 GMT
To add on tut's answer, the passenger doors can be opened on either side if the CSDE override is activated. It is an all or nothing though, all of the doors open (on one side) - the only way to individually open doors is by use of the butterfly cocks (or are they called passenger egress devices now?) which are only accessible from the side of the car and therefore impossible to do in a tube sized tunnel. As for some of the other questions, I can't say exactly what happens when an alarm is pulled (because I don't know!) but on the 1973 stock, there is a panel on the offside of the cab which IIRC will indicate what car the alarm was pulled in, and that is was an alarm rather than some other fault. The rear J door (the one linking the passenger saloon and the cab) as well as the M door (central external door) should both be locked. I think on newer stocks they are alarmed so that the driver is made aware of an intruder, but I don't think this is the case on the 73 stock. I think that they do have a light that shows when the other cab has been keyed in however. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 5, 2016 16:12:01 GMT
Assuming, however, that everything on the train is functioning, no you cannot open any passenger doors on the train when it is in a tunnel, or else not stopped in a platform. If, however, you were to disable or override the relevant equipment, you presumably could. Hard to see why you would. Well, It can get quite hot in those trains. Seriously though, I suspect that David has criminal intent in mind. ETA: By one of his fictional characters, of course! |
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Post by PiccNT on Jul 5, 2016 16:14:40 GMT
If a PEA is pulled, the emergency brakes are applied wherever it happens as it breaks the Round Train circuit. If between stations, there is a PEA override button that has to be depressed and kept depressed to move the train. The PEA will then be reset at the next station unless it was pulled within station limits and then will be reset straight away.
As above, CSDE override does just that and you can open any doors within the 30 second time limit. The other J doors are alarmed and an intruder alert will go off in the leading cab that will be investigated at the next station.
Emergency lights are on all of the time and they are protected by a separate fuse than the main car lighting.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Jul 5, 2016 16:16:44 GMT
I know for sure that the 73 and 92 stocks have a cab intruder alarm which sounds in the active drivers cab, which warns them that the rear or middle cab door is open.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 11:52:43 GMT
A big thank you to everyone for these detailed answers - it is very much appreciated.
class411 - yes, any untoward intent is entirely from fictional characters, not myself!
These answers have raied a few related questions so if anyone can help clarify these, again it's really appreciated.
1) When a PEA is pulled, what does the passenger who pulled it see or hear? (And I'm still not sure if a PEA works if there is no power to the train?)
2) In theory, could a driver disable the emergency lights by removing the fuse? Or is this not in the driver's cabin?
3) From what I've learned about CSDE, it seems the Door Enable Override would allow all passenger doors to be opened even when not receiving a signal from a platform loop. If this is correct, would it apply to the front and rear cabin doors too, or are they always manually operated?
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Post by domh245 on Jul 6, 2016 12:49:29 GMT
3) From what I've learned about CSDE, it seems the Door Enable Override would allow all passenger doors to be opened even when not receiving a signal from a platform loop. If this is correct, would it apply to the front and rear cabin doors too, or are they always manually operated? I think that the CSDE is passenger doors only, the drivers' doors can be opened at any time (on older stocks at least). CSDE override allows the doors to be opened at any time (and is used during the procedure to check a train before coming into service - District Dave did a piece on it, but I can't find it at the moment) - I did find one of his pieces about CSDE that might help. |
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Post by trt on Jul 6, 2016 13:01:47 GMT
In the event of loss of traction current, I believe the tunnel lights automatically illuminate. They are on two independent control circuits (but not supply circuits), with the lights connected alternately, so that should one lighting control circuit fail only every other lamp goes out. If they are still there, shorting the tunnel telephone wires should also drop the traction current and turn on the tunnel lights.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Jul 6, 2016 14:22:12 GMT
1) When a PEA is pulled, what does the passenger who pulled it see or hear? (And I'm still not sure if a PEA works if there is no power to the train?) Some PEAs have a little red panel which will light up with "Driver Aware" when pulled and "Speak to Driver" when the driver acknowledges. There is also an audible beeping noise which is emitted when a PEA is pulled, as seen in this video: (I've linked to the correct time) |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 6, 2016 15:36:25 GMT
1) (And I'm still not sure if a PEA works if there is no power to the train?) PEA will continue to operate with the traction current off. Powered by battery/power pack. 2) In theory, could a driver disable the emergency lights by removing the fuse? Or is this not in the driver's cabin? Emergency lights have no separate control, simply 'saloon lights ON/off' - emergency lights (powered independently by battery/power pack or via alternator from traction current) will stay on if saloon lights ON selected, with saloon lights OFF selected, train will be in darkness. |
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Post by trt on Jul 6, 2016 15:52:06 GMT
Emergency lights have no separate control, simply 'saloon lights ON/off' - emergency lights (powered independently by battery/power pack or via alternator from traction current) will stay on if saloon lights ON selected, with saloon lights OFF selected, train will be in darkness. Except for light coming in from the tunnel *IF* the tunnel lights are on. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 17:24:22 GMT
Thank you once again to everyone for these excellent answers. These are all minor details in the story but I'm keen to get as much right as possible. I'm learning a great deal here.
Phoenixcronin, that video is scary! But thanks very much for posting it.
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Post by bassmike on Jul 6, 2016 17:49:55 GMT
The video is not "scary"- its just par for the course with the scum around nowadays Why did'nt someone make a citizens arrest/.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jul 6, 2016 20:05:24 GMT
The video is not "scary"- its just par for the course with the scum around nowadays Why did'nt someone make a citizens arrest/. Because you wouldn't know whether the protagonist was carrying a knife or worse. The world is witness to too many dead heroes. These things should be left to the professionals with the authority, stab vests and pepper spray. |
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hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
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Post by hobbayne on Jul 6, 2016 20:12:14 GMT
Emergency lights have no separate control, simply 'saloon lights ON/off' - emergency lights (powered independently by battery/power pack or via alternator from traction current) will stay on if saloon lights ON selected, with saloon lights OFF selected, train will be in darkness.Except for light coming in from the tunnel *IF* the tunnel lights are on. The 1992 stock always has some lighting. When the saloon lights are switched off the emergency lights will stay on. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 6, 2016 20:12:55 GMT
Driver's cab side doors can be open while the train is moving, unless it's running in ATO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2016 20:24:14 GMT
Driver's cab side doors can be open while the train is moving, unless it's running in ATO. And with that in mind, it might be interesting to note once again that the 1967 stock were not provided with cab doors, due to their intended use with ATO. Since the 1972 stock were heavily based on the 1967 stock, they don't have cab doors either. |
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North End
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Post by North End on Jul 6, 2016 22:29:48 GMT
Except for light coming in from the tunnel *IF* the tunnel lights are on. The 1992 stock always has some lighting. When the saloon lights are switched off the emergency lights will stay on. Same on the 95 stock. |
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Post by Jerome H on Jul 7, 2016 0:12:42 GMT
Driver's cab side doors can be open while the train is moving, unless it's running in ATO. And with that in mind, it might be interesting to note once again that the 1967 stock were not provided with cab doors, due to their intended use with ATO. Since the 1972 stock were heavily based on the 1967 stock, they don't have cab doors either. I've always wondered about this. Thanks for sharing! |
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Post by bassmike on Jul 7, 2016 12:51:42 GMT
Who often arrive just too late and then arrest the defendant or whatever for the offence.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 7, 2016 13:18:48 GMT
Who often arrive just too late and then arrest the defendant or whatever for the offence.  Rincew1nd: Discussion on the order of posts in this thread can be found here |
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Post by MoreToJack on Jul 7, 2016 14:29:11 GMT
Let's stick to the topic at hand folks, and avoid getting into any specifics regarding PEAs, citizen arrests or the actions of the BTP. If you want to have further discussion, please feel free to create a fresh topic in the relevant area.
All I will add is that, as a member of staff, the assistance from the BTP is always appreciated, even if slightly after the incident. I couldn't have had more helpful officers last night, for instance, even though my assailant absconded before they arrived at the scene.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jul 8, 2016 12:08:17 GMT
This is all fascinating stuff but I think it'd be best to return to the thread topic. Thanks.Rincew1nd: Discussion on the order of posts in this thread can be found here
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2016 10:43:30 GMT
Thanks to the mods for the tidy-up. I have another question inspired by these replies: Emergency lights have no separate control, simply 'saloon lights ON/off' - emergency lights (powered independently by battery/power pack or via alternator from traction current) will stay on if saloon lights ON selected, with saloon lights OFF selected, train will be in darkness. Except for light coming in from the tunnel *IF* the tunnel lights are on. My question is: when exactly are tunnel lights on and off? I'm not sure if they are permanently on when a service is running, or if they automatically come on when a train approaches. If the latter, does it have to be a train that activates them or could they be activated by a person walking the tracks? As a reminder, this is for a story set entirely on the Piccadilly Line, in case the answer varies by location. Many thanks! |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 10, 2016 13:06:34 GMT
Thanks to the mods for the tidy-up. I My question is: when exactly are tunnel lights on and off? Tunnel lights come on automatically when traction current is lost. They can be switched on/off from station platforms, usually one station controls the lights halfway to the next station. Sometimes the manual switching fails and lights can remain on while trains are running. |
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Post by trainopd78 on Jul 11, 2016 6:34:57 GMT
We also seem to have gone back to leaving them on near pointwork again too. They cannot be turned off manually once traction current is off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 9:17:43 GMT
Thanks to the mods for the tidy-up. I My question is: when exactly are tunnel lights on and off? Tunnel lights come on automatically when traction current is lost. They can be switched on/off from station platforms, usually one station controls the lights halfway to the next station. Sometimes the manual switching fails and lights can remain on while trains are running. Thanks for this. So to clarify, on those occasions when I've seen tunnel lights on as the train passes by them, this is because manual switching from the nearest station has failed? And that normally, if a train is running then there should be no lights on and the driver relies on the train's headlights to see the tunnel ahead? |
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Post by trt on Jul 11, 2016 10:17:59 GMT
Apart from at some locations where the lights are left on due to points or other track features. The reflection of the light off the rails gives some indication of how the points are set.
I'm not sure if there are direction indicators in tunnel where signalling is done by TBTC. I can imagine it being far more reassuring to have the gaps and directions etc signed by something immediate to the feature rather than sent remotely from some distant command centre.
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Post by trainopd78 on Jul 11, 2016 15:35:40 GMT
Apart from at some locations where the lights are left on due to points or other track features. The reflection of the light off the rails gives some indication of how the points are set. I'm not sure if there are direction indicators in tunnel where signalling is done by TBTC. I can imagine it being far more reassuring to have the gaps and directions etc signed by something immediate to the feature rather than sent remotely from some distant command centre. If all is working correctly, the only indication is via the TOD (train operator display). There is nothing trackside. However there are remote secure indications for use under degraded conditions but are only lit as required. |
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