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Post by snoggle on Mar 30, 2015 23:18:02 GMT
TfL have started the procurement process for the next Overground concession.
I was kindly sent the summary of the EU procurement notice.
"43/23 Name of Contracting Authority: Transport for London - Rail for London
Title: London Overground Concession Agreement. CfT CA Unique ID: CFT Unique ID: 2015/null/4 Evaluation Mechanism : MEAT
Description: The contract is a new fixed-term agreement to provide passenger rail services on the London Overground railway. The Operator will be required to deliver the contractual requirements detailed in the Concession Agreement and to work collaboratively with RfL to improve services throughout the concession term. The Operator will be required to provide rail services operated over the current London Overground network as well as services over routes transferring from the Greater Anglia franchise in May 2015. Train services will be operated initially using a mixture of existing electric and diesel rolling stock that will be partially replaced by new electric rolling stock supplied by RfL and deployed by the Operator. The contract term is expected to be 7 years and 5 months with an option to extend by up to two years, exercised at RfL's discretion. Further details will be provided in the Invitation to Tender.
Procurement Type: Services CPC Category: Rail transport services Procedure: Negotiated with advertisement Opp Involves: A Public Contract Article Number: DIRECTIVE 2004/17/EC Article 40, paragraph 1"
There are no great shocks there in terms of scope nor the likely timescale for the concession. The ITT, assuming it's released publicly, will be the interesting document in terms of how and when TfL want services to develop.
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Post by flippyff on Apr 5, 2015 8:28:41 GMT
This announcement has now been published on TED/OJ-S, linky hereThere's a couple of items of interest : "(c) Supporting the introduction of a new fleet of at least 45 x 4-car EMUs to replace part of the existing fleet;" So it's 'at least 45 new trains now? " (f) Supporting the re-commissioning of Gospel Oak <> Barking line and re-introduction of services following the completion of electrification works;" It may just be the way I'm reading this but to me it sounds like GOBLIN will be closed and the electrification of the line happening in one big bang so to speak? HTIOI Simon
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Post by domh245 on Apr 5, 2015 9:46:32 GMT
In all likelihood it'll be 45 trains that are delivered at first, but then followed up by options that could be taken up depending on how many people use it.
As for the point about the goblin, that is quite oddly phrased. Current electrification projects are/have been taking place overnight for the most part, with blockades for commissioning or larger pieces of work. One might assume that the service will be changed overnight once the wires are up, but that is unlikely, they'll probably just operate electric trains in lieu of the diesels from when the wires go live until the next timetable change, which they'll have to write.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 11:34:11 GMT
I hope that the current Overground branding will be kept and that the company which wins the contrat is not another country's state run railway and that the use of the company's logo restricted and. does not appear on every asset they manage!
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Post by snoggle on Apr 5, 2015 13:23:42 GMT
flippyff - thanks for the info. There have been fairly long standing rumours that a blockade will be used for GOBLIN electrification. TfL have refused to confirm that approach in "London Overground" Twitter sessions and have just said Network Rail are still planning how to do the work. I would agree with your basic point that the wording of the procurement notice gives a strong hint in that direction. You only re-commission something if you've stopped using it! The contract options are also interesting. The transformation in ticket retailing almost certainly is a reference to copying LU's strategy of closing ticket offices. One wonders how that will square with a TOC's obligation for nationwide ticket selling and impartial retailing. The reference to service frequency improvements is also encouraging to see as there is scope for improvement - we know about extra peak frequency on the NLL being considered as TfL have got hold of some extra paths but beyond that is unknown at present.
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Post by regp41 on Apr 5, 2015 23:32:21 GMT
I wonder if the Gospel Oak re commissioning has anything to do with the proposed extension to Barking Riverside or is that likely to be completed after the current franchise.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 6, 2015 6:43:47 GMT
It won't get built that quickly
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Post by snoggle on Apr 6, 2015 11:22:23 GMT
I wonder if the Gospel Oak re commissioning has anything to do with the proposed extension to Barking Riverside or is that likely to be completed after the current franchise. The Barking Riverside extension still has to have the route finalised. There is supposed to be another round of consultation this year as there is a lot of pressure for 1 or possibly 2 extra stations on the line. TWAO powers sought will be sought with the grant expected in 2017. It'll then take about 2 years to build. The last timescale I saw assumed powers being confirmed in 2017 with project works starting not long after. Completion was slated for Dec 2019 which aligns with the completion of Crossrail. Clearly the new operator will have to take on the extra service which I assume is covered by the references in the scope to a minimum number of extra new trains plus service extensions / extra frequencies.
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Post by occasionaltraveller on Apr 6, 2015 15:59:25 GMT
Network Rail are still in the process of deciding how the electrification is going to be done. The "CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan" shows that the project should have completed step 3 of the GRIP Framework - 'single option selection' - by the end of March, but I can't see any publication of what that option is. Although there was a document update last month, this part wasn't updated. The full engineering scope is expected to be defined by October (GRIP 4). www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf - see page 64-65 It does say, under the West Anglia Main Line section, that the GOBLIN may be needed as a diversionary route when the West Anglia main line is worked on. That may prevent a total blockade even if that would be the cheapest option.
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Post by snoggle on Apr 6, 2015 16:30:46 GMT
Network Rail are still in the process of deciding how the electrification is going to be done. The "CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan" shows that the project should have completed step 3 of the GRIP Framework - 'single option selection' - by the end of March, but I can't see any publication of what that option is. Although there was a document update last month, this part wasn't updated. The full engineering scope is expected to be defined by October (GRIP 4). www.networkrail.co.uk/cp5-delivery-plan/cp5-enhancements-delivery-plan.pdf - see page 64-65 It does say, under the West Anglia Main Line section, that the GOBLIN may be needed as a diversionary route when the West Anglia main line is worked on. That may prevent a total blockade even if that would be the cheapest option. Thanks for the pointer to the document. I note in the list of assumptions that Network Rail are assuming they will be able to get a series of weekend possessions for preparatory work and then a blockade of the entire line subsequent to that. Clearly the GRIP work will confirm whether that assumption is correct or not. It's interesting that GRIP 3 has taken way longer than previously stated. Past statements said it would be ready over a year ago! I also note the long gap between the main route being wired and the subsequent connections to other routes and ports following 18 months later.
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Post by ashlar on Apr 9, 2015 17:04:05 GMT
I hope that the current Overground branding will be kept and that the company which wins the contrat is not another country's state run railway and that the use of the company's logo restricted and. does not appear on every asset they manage! They will keep the branding just the same as th DLR has no non-Tfl branding (or the current Overground for that matter). On buses it is different as there are multiple operators. Not so here.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 10, 2015 6:52:23 GMT
The stations and trains will soon get roundels. Operator branding is confined to uniforms.
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Post by ashlar on Apr 10, 2015 13:22:10 GMT
We'll see about "soon". On the Goblin it took a good 5 years + before the Roundels were put in place. For a very long time we had "temporary signs".
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Post by snoggle on Apr 10, 2015 13:42:48 GMT
We'll see about "soon". On the Goblin it took a good 5 years + before the Roundels were put in place. For a very long time we had "temporary signs". TfL have not set a short deadline for fixing up the stations. I think they've said 2-3 years which is probably a fair assessment given the number of stations and the scale of work at some of them. We might get temporary signage with a roundel on it but the full scale enamel signage will take a fair bit of time. I think they're concentrating on vinyling the trains before the start date so they have a "new" look early on. The fact that the Abellio livery has a white base and limited highlighting helps in that regard.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 10, 2015 14:14:25 GMT
We'll see about "soon". On the Goblin it took a good 5 years + before the Roundels were put in place. For a very long time we had "temporary signs". TfL have not set a short deadline for fixing up the stations. I think they've said 2-3 years which is probably a fair assessment given the number of stations and the scale of work at some of them. We might get temporary signage with a roundel on it but the full scale enamel signage will take a fair bit of time. I think they're concentrating on vinyling the trains before the start date so they have a "new" look early on. The fact that the Abellio livery has a white base and limited highlighting helps in that regard. There will be temporary signing for the change. Also think Chingford will be a reveal station as will Liverpool Street. One train is already running in the livery without roundels.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 11, 2015 12:40:50 GMT
When London Overground was launched there was a plaque unveiling at Hampstead Heath. Do we know if anything is planned to formally launch this expansion? Or is Boris too busy to pretend to be mayor of London these days?
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Post by snoggle on Apr 11, 2015 13:32:38 GMT
When London Overground was launched there was a plaque unveiling at Hampstead Heath. Do we know if anything is planned to formally launch this expansion? Or is Boris too busy to pretend to be mayor of London these days? I don't know what's planned. However I'd be surprised if there wasn't a similar sort of event at whatever the "reveal" station is - probably an Outer London station just to show Boris is doing something for his natural voting constituency. There may even be a "double header" event with something similar planned for "TfL Rail" out on the Shenfield line. Probably on the Thursday or Friday before the service transfers so it can be a promise of future wonderfulness without the risk of the service falling flat on the first day - cynical moi?
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 11, 2015 15:17:47 GMT
Chingford was being painted several weeks ago. Liverpool Street is getting a re-brand for the end of May.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 29, 2015 15:43:32 GMT
from the Passenger Transport Twitter feed. Fascinating that Arriva and MTR have parted company and that Metroline (off the back of their Singapore owner's experience I assume) have entered the field of UK rail operation. Railway Gazette articleTfL press release
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Post by pridley on Jun 30, 2015 8:20:14 GMT
From the TFL Press Release, "A fleet of 45 new trains will be introduced from 2018 on the Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford routes, as well as on the routes between Barking and Gospel Oak and between Romford and Upminster". Is that more than expected? Does it imply any early service improvements? I am looking for an additional two trains per hour to Cheshunt to bring it to four trains per hour turn up and go, which is what TFL have implied with previous statements. It appears to be a considerable increase from previous statements. 41% more trains than previously stated: "A total of 31 new trains will replace the existing Class 315 and Class 317 trains currently in service on the Overground West Anglia and Romford to Upminster routes." www.railway-technology.com/news/newsbombardier-secures-260m-london-overground-train-contract-from-tfl-4607224I also expect to see a passing loop re-instated on Romford to Upminster to provide one additional train for four trains per hour. Carto Metro has a dismantled loop just north of Emerson Park. Anybody have any idea what this implies?
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Post by jukes on Jun 30, 2015 9:48:07 GMT
The allocation of the 45 new trains is as follows: 30 for the West Anglia, 1 for Romford-Upminster, 8 for GOB and 6 for the Watford DC line. The DC 6 will allow 6 Class 378s to be cascaded back to the NLL and WLL.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 30, 2015 9:50:59 GMT
From the TFL Press Release, 45 trains for Enfield, Cheshunt & Chingford. It appears to be a considerable increase from previous statements. 41% more trains than previously stated: "A total of 31 new trains will replace the existing Class 315 and Class 317 trains currently in service on the Overground West Anglia and Romford to Upminster routes." Read the release again: the 45 (which was always what was planned) includes allocations for the Goblin, Emerson and the Watford line. The unit needed for the Emerson line is actually part of the West Anglia allocation of 31. "They will also be run on the routes between Barking and Gospel Oak, and between Romford and Upminster........... eight new four-carriage trains for the electrification of ......Gospel Oak and Barking" ".............additional six trains will strengthen services on other Overground routes". "Strengthen existing Overground services" usually means to make the trains longer - more trains to be made up to eight car formations, rather than a more frequent service. But in this case the services to be strengthened will be on the NLL and ELL, by transferring six 378s from the Watford line, to be replaced on that line with the six new trains that make the order up to 45. Carto Metro has a dismantled loop just north of Emerson Park.Anybody have any idea what this implies? It implies that there was a reversing loop there eighty years ago. Again, you will find discussion of this in earlier threads. It was a reversing loop to allow locomotives operating the Upminster- Emerson shuttles to run round. It was It was about half way between Emerson and Romford, and would seem to have saved little time over reversing at Romford itself. (I assume the shuttles were operated to make it easier for passengers to/from Emerson Park to get to London by the LTS route than the GER route, thereby ensuring the LTS got all the revenue from such custom). The loop was dismantled in 1936 when push-pull working was introduced. I think it was about here, where the formation widens out. www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Emerson+Park,+Hornchurch,+Greater+London+RM11/@51.5714887,0.2083602,171m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47d8bb0d154899d7:0xb75be678054d6f3. I would be difficult to run a regular-interval service with the only passing loop so close to one end of the line.
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Post by A60stock on Jun 30, 2015 11:56:43 GMT
6 new units for the dc line? So i guess the dc line will now be the line in which you can see trains of almost a 50 year age gap. Brand new overground stock contrasting with the 1972 stock, will be quite an interesting line to observe in the future.
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Post by snoggle on Jun 30, 2015 13:44:09 GMT
From the TFL Press Release, "A fleet of 45 new trains will be introduced from 2018 on the Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford routes, as well as on the routes between Barking and Gospel Oak and between Romford and Upminster". Is that more than expected? Does it imply any early service improvements? I am looking for an additional two trains per hour to Cheshunt to bring it to four trains per hour turn up and go, which is what TFL have implied with previous statements. It appears to be a considerable increase from previous statements. 41% more trains than previously stated: "A total of 31 new trains will replace the existing Class 315 and Class 317 trains currently in service on the Overground West Anglia and Romford to Upminster routes." www.railway-technology.com/news/newsbombardier-secures-260m-london-overground-train-contract-from-tfl-4607224I also expect to see a passing loop re-instated on Romford to Upminster to provide one additional train for four trains per hour. Carto Metro has a dismantled loop just north of Emerson Park. Anybody have any idea what this implies? Not again. Why do you refuse to believe that there is NOT going to be some fantastic miracle of 20 car long trains running every 50 nanoseconds on the Enfield Town line? This is getting boring. You keep fantasising about TfL largesse on West Anglia when it has not been promised or even hinted at. TfL have barely been in charge for 4 weeks and they're still struggling to run the basic timetable without cancellations and short formations. The announcement of a bidder shortlist for the concession starting in November 2016 has no bearing on improvements for West Anglia because there are NO stated contract options for West Anglia. They relate to other elements of Overground and have already been announced publicly anyway. It would be lovely if you would be patient and just let things roll forward without endless speculation. If any improvements are to be introduced I am sure the TfL Press Office will not hold back in telling us all about them. The number of trains ordered offers NO, NONE, Zero, Zilch increase in trains for West Anglia. Was 30 and remains 30.
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Post by pridley on Jun 30, 2015 14:25:09 GMT
From the TFL Press Release, "A fleet of 45 new trains will be introduced from 2018 on the Liverpool Street to Enfield Town, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Chingford routes, as well as on the routes between Barking and Gospel Oak and between Romford and Upminster". Is that more than expected? Does it imply any early service improvements? I am looking for an additional two trains per hour to Cheshunt to bring it to four trains per hour turn up and go, which is what TFL have implied with previous statements. It appears to be a considerable increase from previous statements. 41% more trains than previously stated: "A total of 31 new trains will replace the existing Class 315 and Class 317 trains currently in service on the Overground West Anglia and Romford to Upminster routes." www.railway-technology.com/news/newsbombardier-secures-260m-london-overground-train-contract-from-tfl-4607224I also expect to see a passing loop re-instated on Romford to Upminster to provide one additional train for four trains per hour. Carto Metro has a dismantled loop just north of Emerson Park. Anybody have any idea what this implies? Not again. Why do you refuse to believe that there is NOT going to be some fantastic miracle of 20 car long trains running every 50 nanoseconds on the Enfield Town line? This is getting boring. You keep fantasising about TfL largesse on West Anglia when it has not been promised or even hinted at. TfL have barely been in charge for 4 weeks and they're still struggling to run the basic timetable without cancellations and short formations. The announcement of a bidder shortlist for the concession starting in November 2016 has no bearing on improvements for West Anglia because there are NO stated contract options for West Anglia. They relate to other elements of Overground and have already been announced publicly anyway. It would be lovely if you would be patient and just let things roll forward without endless speculation. If any improvements are to be introduced I am sure the TfL Press Office will not hold back in telling us all about them. The number of trains ordered offers NO, NONE, Zero, Zilch increase in trains for West Anglia. Was 30 and remains 30. But they separately state a minimum turn up and go frequency of four trains per hour for all branches, implying two additional services per at peak for Soutbury loop, and retaining eight trains per hour (four carriages) off-peak. I base these points on existing TFL policies. The Press believe the release means 24hr services from Liverpool Street post 2017. Any thoughts on that?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jun 30, 2015 15:57:35 GMT
Not again. Why do you refuse to believe that there is NOT going to be some fantastic miracle of 20 car long trains running every 50 nanoseconds on the Enfield Town line? This is getting boring. You keep fantasising about TfL largesse on West Anglia when it has not been promised or even hinted at. TfL have barely been in charge for 4 weeks and they're still struggling to run the basic timetable without cancellations and short formations. The announcement of a bidder shortlist for the concession starting in November 2016 has no bearing on improvements for West Anglia because there are NO stated contract options for West Anglia. They relate to other elements of Overground and have already been announced publicly anyway. It would be lovely if you would be patient and just let things roll forward without endless speculation. If any improvements are to be introduced I am sure the TfL Press Office will not hold back in telling us all about them. The number of trains ordered offers NO, NONE, Zero, Zilch increase in trains for West Anglia. Was 30 and remains 30. But they separately state a minimum turn up and go frequency of four trains per hour for all branches, implying two additional services per at peak for Soutbury loop, and retaining eight trains per hour (four carriages) off-peak. I base these points on existing TFL policies. The Press believe the release means 24hr services from Liverpool Street post 2017. Any thoughts on that? Like snoggle, I realise that you get quite excited and seem somehow fixated about this WA/LO thing but maybe you could put some of our doubts about your thinking to bed by quoting or linking to the relevant passages published by TFL that confirm what you are suggesting here. Please, in black and white without resorting to posting what you want to believe or infer, as we can all infer things without a great deal of foundation. I wouldn't put any credence in what the press say to be honest as they're often way off beam with things. Aside from everything else and just out of curiosity, why do you expect a passing loop to be reinstated north-west of Emerson Park because it features historically on Carto Metro? Have you asked TFL whether they plan to do this?
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Post by pridley on Jun 30, 2015 16:12:05 GMT
I expect a passing loop at Emerson Park because one is needed to double services to four trains per hour, and that is the minimum 'turn up and go' service TFL have stated they wanted provided to all stations. I hope Chesham and Amersham are isolated examples of not complying with that policy. But clearly Chesham could also have a passing loop and be provided a shuttle, so maybe the hope is not to be too high. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/29/neglected-rail-services-london-tfl-overgroundOn the above link there is a stated desire to increase service quantities to the level where passengers turn up without checking. TFLs minimum turn up and go frequency is four trains per hour. He states here that West Anglia will not experience immediate increase, but obviously, there is only one way to achieve that stated goal. Two more trains per hour for Southbury to bring it up to four trains per hour, plus maintaining on peak frequency off peak albeit with shorter carriages. ---------- To find a definition of what that means by turn up and go, in terms of frequency, simply read the Mayor's Transport Strategy. It states: para 246: www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/MTS_Chapter_5_pt1_0.pdf"Train frequency of at least four trains per hour on each route where the infrastructure allows, up to 23:00 " You can find similar definitions in Network Rail documents. ---------- Evidence of this approach being taken on previous Overground Lines: tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/Item08-020212-Board-London-Overground-Impact-Study.pdf"LO operates a minimum of four trains per hour on any East London Line route for most of the day and 12 trains per hour run on the central section from Surrey Quays to Dalston Junction." "In the off peak , frequencies were lower at four trains per hour between Stratford and Richmond and two trains per hour between Clapham and Willesden." ----------------- tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/november/extra-carriages-for-london-overground-services"Passengers along the Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction link now have much better access to a wider range of destinations. The four trains per hour frequency has made the service more convenient to use with more journey time options" ------------ So it is not hyperbole, I am looking for signs about when these changes will be implemented, not if. I anticipate that Crossrail 2 will free up enough routes to allow Cheshunt another two trains per hour and know that new rolling stock presents reliability sufficient to maintain that all day. Elsewhere there was a statement made that a statement would be forthcoming about off-peak services, so I expect an interim increase of the peak followed by eight trains per hour between Liverpool Street and Edmonton Green at all times as soon as the new rolling stock is bedded in. Furthermore, if STAR services allow all Hertford East services to run via Tottenham Hale, you could see a further four trains per hour at peak via Seven Sisters with a more uniform service to provide between five and six trains per branch. If anybody thinks that TFL do not want to impress, to grab headlines and win other franchises, you are living in cloud coockoo land, and these proposals above nexus with existing, funded infrastructure and existing Mayoral policies.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Jun 30, 2015 16:38:57 GMT
I expect a passing loop at Emerson Park because one is needed to double services to four trains per hour, and that is the minimum 'turn up and go' service TFL have stated they wanted provided to all stations. I hope Chesham and Amersham are isolated examples of not complying with that policy. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/29/neglected-rail-services-london-tfl-overgroundOn the above link there is a stated desire to increase service quantities to the level where passengers turn up without checking. TFLs minimum turn up and go frequency is four trains per hour, y can find that in numerous documents. He states here that West Anglia will not experience immediate increase, but obviously, there is only one way to achieve that stated goal. Two more trains per hour for Southbury, plus maintaining on peak frequency off peak albeit with shorter carriages. Many thanks for responding pridley. In other words, it's an aspiration or a vague possibility, not fact as it stands. They've only ordered one train for Romford-Upminster because that's all it needs. The cost of reinstating a passing loop would be massive and likely not worth it. I used to live near there and some friends still do and it's not exactly in need of expansion.
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Post by pridley on Jun 30, 2015 16:57:58 GMT
In other words, it's an aspiration or a vague possibility, not fact as it stands. They've only ordered one train for Romford-Upminster because that's all it needs. The cost of reinstating a passing loop would be massive and likely not worth it. I used to live near there and some friends still do and it's not exactly in need of expansion. I updated the post above linking to the relevant parts of the Mayoral Transport Strategy and note the fourth weapon, almost fanatical devotion to the Mayor. Certainly, a passing loop is not expensive relative to other recent Overground investments and satisfying Mayoral strategy is the way Bureaucrats work. This is the cheapest way of satisfying the Mayoral strategy of turn up and go frequency on this route. The West Anglia solution to satisfying the Mayoral Strategy, noted above, is yet easier to achieve once TFL have a hold on the network and have new rolling stock.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jun 30, 2015 17:01:29 GMT
Amersham has more than 2tph because Chiltern serves it too. Chesham can't have more than it does because it's a single track branch. If a town of 21,000 doesn't merit a doubling of the track, I doubt that Emerson Park will be any higher up the queue.
Sticking a loop in where the old one was (even if it would be longs enough for two 4-car rains to pass each other) , will not enable you to increase the service to 4tph. Obviously,t rains would have to pass each other there every fifteen minutes. But the loop was much closer to the Romford end - it would take at least fifteen minutes for a train to get from the loop to Upminster and back, not counting any terminal time at Upminster or the slower speed needed to negotiate the loop's pointwork.
Indeed, even if the loop were at a station, (which would be much more expensive in land take - not to mention complete rebuilding of the station itself) speeds would have to be slower than at present, eating in to the terminal time available (currently 4min at Upminster, 8 min at Romford). It is one thing to roll into a platform with a mile or so of clear track ahead of you. it is quite another to do so when at the far end of the platform is a set of points set against you, with another train heading towards you. Overshooting is a rather more serious matter in those circumstances!
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