rincew1nd
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Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 7, 2016 11:48:58 GMT
A little whilst back we discussed Why the Whistle?. During day five of the March Quiz I commented on the whistle of a 67ts being incorporated into the handrails adjacent to the M door and how this was a unique design (or so I thought); I was subsequently corrected! After a little bit of further research it appears that whistles previously designed into the M door grabrails have been decomissioned and separate, conventional, whistle fitted on the 72ts and C Stock. So, my question is what has driven this change, and what considerations are there when choosing where to locate a whistle? <<edit - Rincew1nd: Actually, I don't know if the whistles in the handrails have been decomissioned or not! Sentence struck through.>>
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Mar 7, 2016 13:36:21 GMT
One of the health & safety reps at Upminster has been trying to find out what decibel level train whistles are set at. Whilst he's convinced there must be a standard laid down, he's yet to find out what it is and he's been ferreting around for some time.
On that basis, I suspect you may struggle to find an answer to your question.
That being said, I wonder if ease of maintenance is a factor?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 13:42:43 GMT
You might find its a working at height issue. If it's on the grab rail then technically there is no working at height as the fitter could stand on the train itself.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Mar 7, 2016 14:25:56 GMT
A little whilst back we discussed Why the Whistle?. During day five of the March Quiz I commented on the whistle of a 67ts being incorporated into the handrails adjacent to the M door and how this was a unique design (or so I thought); I was subsequently corrected! After a little bit of further research it appears that whistles previously designed into the M door grabrails have been decomissioned and separate, conventional, whistle fitted on the 72ts and C Stock. So, my question is what has driven this change, and what considerations are there when choosing where to locate a whistle? In the case of the 72 stock it was definitely done after refurbishment, I think during a programme of engineering modifications around 1999ish. If you look at early photos of refurbished 72 stock you'll see the car numbers were originally perfectly balanced either side of the destination blind, this changed when the whistle was fitted. When I trained on 72 stock the old whistle was still in use as well as the new, we were told this was due to Network Rail certification requirements - I assume this is still the case. I suspect the general programme of whistle replacement was to do with making it more audible in the open for track workers etc. In a tunnel it's only really used to call attention or as part of certain operational procedures (eg applying the rule), so less important. On a 95 stock you have a soft and loud whistle, the idea is one is used in the tunnel and one in the open. In reality as rather than 'soft/loud' they're really 'loud/very loud' most drivers tend to use the soft one most of the time. I suspect some digging through paperwork around the time refurbishments were in full swing would likely uncover a bit more info.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 7, 2016 14:37:54 GMT
D Stock as built had the whistle under the cab floor, this was moved to its current position before refurbishment.
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Post by domh245 on Mar 7, 2016 14:38:31 GMT
One of the health & safety reps at Upminster has been trying to find out what decibel level train whistles are set at. Whilst he's convinced there must be a standard laid down, he's yet to find out what it is and he's been ferreting around for some time. On that basis, I suspect you may struggle to find an answer to your question. That being said, I wonder if ease of maintenance is a factor? Would the whistle not be held to the same standards as a warning horn on mainline trains, in which case (according to Railway Group Standard GM/RT2484 [pg6]) they should be about 100dB.
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Post by patrickb on Mar 7, 2016 15:59:46 GMT
One of the health & safety reps at Upminster has been trying to find out what decibel level train whistles are set at. Whilst he's convinced there must be a standard laid down, he's yet to find out what it is and he's been ferreting around for some time. On that basis, I suspect you may struggle to find an answer to your question. That being said, I wonder if ease of maintenance is a factor? Would the whistle not be held to the same standards as a warning horn on mainline trains, in which case (according to Railway Group Standard GM/RT2484 [pg6]) they should be about 100dB. My reasoning was that the second whistle was installed to meet requirements on BR/NR Shared Sections. Which would explain why the 72's, A's & D's had whistles installed above the cab windows during refurbishment. Potentially LU decided to make this a standard requirement thereafter.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 7, 2016 17:32:24 GMT
This is not a new issue. Older stock from the 1920s/30s had whistles relocated from under the chassis to the front of the cars often protected with a shield. Examples I can think of is 1923-34 tube stock, 1935/38 stock, F stock, all types of Q stock and O/P stock.
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Post by br7mt on Mar 7, 2016 19:40:13 GMT
There are whistle audibility requirements, I think they are in the new Cat 2 RS standard.
I know the Cravens 60TS unit had new whistles fitted during its preservation life to meet the new requirements.
Regards,
Dan
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rincew1nd
Administrator
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 9, 2016 15:20:36 GMT
What about the 38ts? The ones on the Isle seem to have one mounted on the corner column of the cab, which I can't see on pictures of them in service with LU or on the Museum's set. Was this a modification when they crossed the water?
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Post by christopher125 on Mar 17, 2016 1:59:18 GMT
What about the 38ts? The ones on the Isle seem to have one mounted on the corner column of the cab, which I can't see on pictures of them in service with LU or on the Museum's set. Was this a modification when they crossed the water? According to a topic on the SEMG yahoo group the Standard Stock received redundant whistles from Class 71s before they came over - these were then fitted to the replacement 38TS at Eastleigh alongside some new examples made to the same design.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 17, 2016 10:11:40 GMT
the Standard Stock received redundant whistles from Class 71s before they came over . I was mystified by this, but apparently the Class 71s did have whistles, which they kept until withdrawal in 1976. However, ten of them were converted to Class 74s in 1967, and it is presumably these which donated their whistles to the Standard stock as they were fitted with air horns instead en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_74#/media/File:Class_74_74003.jpg. Only problem - there were 25 driving cabs on the VEC/TIS units, (nineteen DMBS and six DTS), but only twenty on the ten class 71 locos converted. So where did the extra five whsitles come from?
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Post by christopher125 on Mar 17, 2016 15:30:53 GMT
Apparently they only needed 19, the DTS came over as trailers and so kept their LU whistles.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 18, 2016 21:41:07 GMT
The vehicles used were nineteen DMs, ten DTS, and fourteen trailers, formed into six four-car and six three-car units and one spare DM. Six of the DTS were used as end cars in the three car units, and the other four as normal trailers, with the cabs inoperable. However, all the photos I can find of the 3TIS units show them formed in a 7-car train, with the DTS in the middle of the train, so maybe they never operated with the DTS at the end of a train.
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metman
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5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Mar 19, 2016 19:23:33 GMT
The 4VEC and 3TIS units did operate independently but latterly they were formed into 4 or 5 car trains. In NSE days at the end of the stock a control trailer DTS was reconverted back for use and I believe spent a lot of time on the Ryde pier shuttle.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 19, 2016 20:43:27 GMT
.........so, to get back to the original question, if the class 71s could only provide enough whistles for ten units (twenty cabs), what did the other five cabs get their whistles from.
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Post by christopher125 on Mar 20, 2016 1:47:29 GMT
.........so, to get back to the original question, if the class 71s could only provide enough whistles for ten units (twenty cabs), what did the other five cabs get their whistles from. IIRC the 3TIS were only ever used as single ended units for strengthening purposes until 1987, when the DTS of 486031 was brought into use. There was never any need for all 12 trainsets to have a replacement whistle at both ends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 13:57:09 GMT
What about the 38ts? The ones on the Isle seem to have one mounted on the corner column of the cab, which I can't see on pictures of them in service with LU or on the Museum's set. Was this a modification when they crossed the water? Sorry for the late reply. I was looking at the museum 38ts and I spotted what I think are two whistles. One is below the solebar, and one on the front of the cab behind a shield. I did not take a picture but found a picture online which I have circled.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 20, 2016 14:57:09 GMT
The 38ts in the isle have much bigger whistles, higher up than your circle.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 20, 2016 15:53:33 GMT
Yes I think they are just below cant rail leave by the window.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 20, 2016 15:57:09 GMT
The 38ts in the isle have much bigger whistles, higher up than your circle. Like this And here is a 485 - the whistle was mounted inboard of the driver's window
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 20, 2016 16:31:57 GMT
Is that whistle on the 38ts the same as the 485? Perhaps they were transferred?
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Post by christopher125 on Mar 20, 2016 18:05:07 GMT
Is that whistle on the 38ts the same as the 485? Perhaps they were transferred? As mentioned on the previous page some of the whistles were indeed transferred alongside some new ones made to the same design.
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