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Post by flippyff on Feb 14, 2016 22:33:00 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Feb 15, 2016 1:02:23 GMT
I'm not clear that the intention ever was for Crossrail to charge the same fares as LU to Heathrow. People might like that but I understood TfL are locked into an arrangement whereby a premium fare is payable for a number of years. I only wish I could find the link that I read on another blog that proves this agreement.  Moving on the ORR issue then it's clear they feel that HAL are trying charge a ridiculously excessive sum by way of an access charge. If ORR's ruling is held then Crossrail still faces a charge of £138 per train but at least the other £597 charge per train will have gone. ORR Consultation documentWhat is mildly amazing is that HAL haven't got the paperwork to back up their proposition. I find it astonishing that neither they nor their lawyers or bankers or financiers for the tunnel link have copies of any of the paperwork. Still if it means their outrageous attempt to rip off the public sector and rail passengers fails then perhaps it's a good thing. The other implication here, and this has been said elsewhere so I won't take any credit, is that HAL might well have been able to charge twice for the tunnel link if historic costs had been deemed to be recoverable from Crossrail. This is because charges related to the Regulatory Asset Base of Heathrow Airport (i.e. fees paid by the airlines) have already been paying in part for the rail tunnels. Talk about "coining it in".  |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 15, 2016 14:16:39 GMT
Does Heathrow Connect (HeC) pay this levy?
If not then since Crossrail replaces HeC then there is no justification for it to pay.
If HeC does pay then perhaps the same payment should be made by Crossrail.
Simon
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 21:26:50 GMT
This is leaving a very very big question mark in my head. Most of the questions already mentioned above. Was TFL even aware of this during the planning of Crossrail? I recon if TFL was aware, they would of added the costs into the Crossrail construction budget. Lets hope Crossrail don't have to pay, Heathrow probally has enough money, greedy as*holes.
Will Crossrail still run to Heathrow if HAL win the court case, or is it too late?
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Post by theblackferret on Feb 15, 2016 22:44:14 GMT
"This decision hinges on the interpretation of a piece of EU-derived law which says that charges for such construction costs can only be levied on train operators if the project could not have gone ahead without them. It is the interpretation of 'could not have gone ahead' which is crucial in this case.
"What makes this case unusual is that it is being applied to a project that is already built and was indeed built before the relevant law came into force."
No law can be applied retrospectively anywhere. If the spur was partly built in reasonable anticipation of Crossrail one day having access, HAL might have a case. I'm not legally qualified, but if the spur was built to allow Heathrow Express services to serve it in 1998, then any heads of agreement drawn up in 1995/6/7 would have to specify that any surcharge imposed on that operator would be payable by their successors in title and that it would be the responsibility of the then-operator to ensure any said successors were informed of that liability in advance of taking over that service. Is Crossrail taking over HE anyway?
Perhaps the absence of supporting paperwork so far to show that was the case speaks volumes? It's difficult to see how Crossrail could have possibly influenced a decision to build a railway spur three years before the Crossrail project as we know it was even publicly announced, and seven years before it was first presented to Parliament.
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Post by phil on Feb 16, 2016 1:22:28 GMT
Does Heathrow Connect (HeC) pay this levy? If not then since Crossrail replaces HeC then there is no justification for it to pay. If HeC does pay then perhaps the same payment should be made by Crossrail. Simon Heathrow connect charges a premium fare between Hayes and the Airport - so no Heathrow Connect doesn't pay the levy - the Passenger / Customer pays directly as part of their ticket for that section, which costs considerably more than it should do based on other National Rail fares of a similar distance. From Hayes to London Paddington Heathrow Connect effectively to all intents just another FGW service* and the fares charged for that stretch are the same as BR / NSE (adjusted for inflation over the decades of course) - which is also why travelcards can be used on it between Hayes and Paddington. Crossrail is different as TfL wish to incorporate Crossrail trains to Heathrow into their current zonal fare structure rather than making passenger / customers pay the levy through a expensive ticket. As such Heathrow Airport are demanding that if the passengers won't be paying TfL does - and this dispute is all about how much TfL can be charged on a per train basis - which presumably from Heathrow's point of view goes something like this: "A Crossrail train can carry xxx passengers and is predicted to be xx% full when using our tunnels. If all those passengers had to pay the Levy themselves (like HEX and HC passengers currently do) this would equate to £xxx per train". *If Heathrow Connect were to ever cease the the Hayes - Heathrow section could be stopped imediately (its not regarded as part of the National Rail network yet), however FGW would have to still operate the Paddington - Hayes part of the service to maintain the minimum service frequency at intermediate stations - (which is something they have effectively sub- let to Heathrow Express who operate them under the 'Heathrow Connect' banner ) HEX passengers / customers also pay the Levy - again as part of their expensive ticket (which of course, HEX being an open access operator all the way, also includes a premium for it being a non stop service). |
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Post by crusty54 on Feb 16, 2016 5:12:27 GMT
Heathrow Connect trains are driven by FGW drivers
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 16, 2016 7:49:07 GMT
Crossrail is different as TfL wish to incorporate Crossrail trains to Heathrow into their current zonal fare structure rather than making passenger / customers pay the levy through a expensive ticket. Why can't this be done by making Heathrow (the central Express/Crossrail station) a special zone, and setting the fares to/from/via that zone to include the levy? Isn't this essentially what's being done at the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria? If HAL want to be certain everyone is paying, it is up to them to provide sufficient Revenue Men to check tickets between Heathrow 123 and the next stop (Hayes or /Paddington as the case may be). . |
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Post by phil on Feb 16, 2016 10:57:08 GMT
Crossrail is different as TfL wish to incorporate Crossrail trains to Heathrow into their current zonal fare structure rather than making passenger / customers pay the levy through a expensive ticket. Why can't this be done by making Heathrow (the central Express/Crossrail station) a special zone, and setting the fares to/from/via that zone to include the levy? Isn't this essentially what's being done at the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria? If HAL want to be certain everyone is paying, it is up to them to provide sufficient Revenue Men to check tickets between Heathrow 123 and the next stop (Hayes or /Paddington as the case may be). . It CAN be done - in fact Heathrow would love this to be the solution as the revenues it would generate for them by Passengers paying the Levy as part of their ticket would probably be grater than what they will get on a per train toll paid by TfL However TfL have made in very clear from the outset, they want Crossrail to fit into the existing zonal fare structure and allow Travelcards, etc to be valid on the entire route into the Airport, not just as far as Hayes . That means that the Levy cannot be added to tickets and has to be paid directly from TfL to Heathrow. Of course had the airport rail link been properly financed by the state - as occured with the link to Stansted (rather than get Heathrow to finance ot in exchange for 25 years worth of exclusive running rights / guaranteed fast line GWML paths / the right to charge a extra levy to passengers like the Severn Road Bridge) then the situation would not have arisen. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 16, 2016 11:08:16 GMT
25 years worth of exclusive running rights What happens when the 25 years runs out, which will not be that long after Crossrail opens? Evil thought - can some excuse be found for Crossrail to only run to Reading until the 25 years expires, so that HExHCon keep the exclusivity? |
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Post by stapler on Feb 16, 2016 14:19:55 GMT
This is reminiscent of the toll that the ECR had to pay the Blackwall for using Fenchurch St in the 1850s, and which led to such rows after the opening of the Loughton Branch in 1856.
However, £138 per train could possibly be raised by a £1 levy on LHR Crossrail fares, as one would envisage at least 150 paz per train. That would be reasonable, not like the hopelessly extortionate fares charged on the HEx
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Post by philthetube on Feb 16, 2016 18:52:22 GMT
If tfl just said no, end of story Heathrow could say bye to any future expansion plans
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2016 22:25:25 GMT
Slap a Compulsory Purchase order onto the Line for One Pound, with TFL as the beneficary, Legislation does state that COP's can be applied in the grounds of Public Interest.
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Feb 16, 2016 23:31:10 GMT
Slap a Compulsory Purchase order onto the Line for One Pound, with TFL as the beneficary, Legislation does state that COP's can be applied in the grounds of Public Interest. I'll go with this one. You win the internet. It will also force HX to cut fares. |
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Post by 315 on Feb 24, 2016 20:40:55 GMT
Heathrow Connect trains are owned and operated by HEx on behalf of GWR. The drivers are employed by Heathrow Express. Heathrow Connect trains are driven by FGW drivers |
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Post by spsmiler on Feb 25, 2016 9:30:18 GMT
Slap a Compulsory Purchase order onto the Line for One Pound, with TFL as the beneficary, Legislation does state that COP's can be applied in the grounds of Public Interest. This sounds like what local governments were allowed to do (and many did do) with the first generation tramways. It lead to the private tramway companies not investing in the system, which actully proved harmful in the long term. Simon |
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