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Post by bicbasher on Oct 13, 2015 17:16:40 GMT
TfL are proposing to add an extra 2tph to Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction from 2018, in time for Crossrail's launch to relieve capacity issues on those two southern branches of the ELL. This would bring 10tph between New Cross Gate and Sydenham, 6tph serving Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction which would start from Dalston Junction. However these are slots which are currently filled by New Cross services, which are lightly used designed to maintain capacity in the core section. www.southlondonpress.co.uk/article.cfm?id=4010&headline=More%20trains%20planned%20for%20London%20Overground
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 13, 2015 23:58:38 GMT
Maybe some sort of automation between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction will be needed to cope with all the extra trains being planned? If so, the same system as Thameslink sounds like a good idea - because it will already have a safety case etc for mainline trains, even though the stations I quoted as boundary points are on sections of rail owned by TFL.
Simon
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Post by North End on Oct 14, 2015 13:58:52 GMT
Maybe some sort of automation between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction will be needed to cope with all the extra trains being planned? If so, the same system as Thameslink sounds like a good idea - because it will already have a safety case etc for mainline trains, even though the stations I quoted as boundary points are on sections of rail owned by TFL. Simon 20tps (I think that's what's proposed?) should be more-than possible with conventional signalling and manual driving - especially with comparatively short trains. I'd be surprised if the current signalling was not specified/designed capable of delivering at least this.
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Post by peterc on Oct 14, 2015 17:32:23 GMT
So does this just mean diverting some New Cross Gate trains rather than an increase in capacity on the core section?
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Post by redbond on Oct 15, 2015 9:28:41 GMT
The core route section (Surrey Quays to Dalston)can accommodate up to 24tph, however at the moment with 16tph it's already very mentally draining on us drivers, as morning and evening rush hours are mostly spent driving on yellow and red signals. From what I've heard it would be extra services, not diverting the New Cross paths, however as it's so early who knows what will happen. Regardless, I can't see any more increases in capacity without some form of automation.
The December timetable is going to see a massive overhaul of the service and the order of trains. West Croydon and Crystal Palace trains will terminate at Highbury, New Cross and Clapham Junction trains will terminate at Dalston Junction. Supposedly this is going to help ease congestion a bit and with Southern and Thameslink's new timetable too, all the services should hopefully run smoother together.
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Post by North End on Oct 15, 2015 10:45:42 GMT
The core route section (Surrey Quays to Dalston)can accommodate up to 24tph, however at the moment with 16tph it's already very mentally draining on us drivers, as morning and evening rush hours are mostly spent driving on yellow and red signals. From what I've heard it would be extra services, not diverting the New Cross paths, however as it's so early who knows what will happen. Regardless, I can't see any more increases in capacity without some form of automation. The December timetable is going to see a massive overhaul of the service and the order of trains. West Croydon and Crystal Palace trains will terminate at Highbury, New Cross and Clapham Junction trains will terminate at Dalston Junction. Supposedly this is going to help ease congestion a bit and with Southern and Thameslink's new timetable too, all the services should hopefully run smoother together. The LU setup of 2-aspect signals with repeaters where necessary is better for high-frequency railways, as it avoids the issue of always driving on yellows. The tunnel sections on Merseyrail are signalled this way for the same reason, I think the busiest there is currently 16tph on the Loop at peak times. If the busy Northern Line could achieve 30tph during the morning peak with 59 stock and signalling in places basically dating back to the 1920s, the modern ELL *should* have no problem running 20tph. If it can't achieve this, questions need to be asked about the specifications for the signalling and/or rolling stock.
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Post by bicbasher on Oct 15, 2015 11:39:05 GMT
. The December timetable is going to see a massive overhaul of the service and the order of trains. West Croydon and Crystal Palace trains will terminate at Highbury, New Cross and Clapham Junction trains will terminate at Dalston Junction. Supposedly this is going to help ease congestion a bit and with Southern and Thameslink's new timetable too, all the services should hopefully run smoother together. A quick look at Real Train Times at Forest Hill for example for mid-December shows a 7 min gap northbound with the West Croydon's first rather than the Palace services.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 15, 2015 22:07:37 GMT
Perhaps part of the route towards getting nearer to the 24tph would be if the trains accelerated faster and braked more quickly.
Maybe this will entail the Class 378's having their operating software modified so that they have acceleration and braking capabilities more like 1992 tube stock and 2009 tube stock.
Simon
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Post by melikepie on Oct 16, 2015 0:04:18 GMT
So much for an orbital London Overground
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Post by redbond on Oct 16, 2015 0:14:45 GMT
Perhaps part of the route towards getting nearer to the 24tph would be if the trains accelerated faster and braked more quickly. Maybe this will entail the Class 378's having their operating software modified so that they have acceleration and braking capabilities more like 1992 tube stock and 2009 tube stock. Simon The 5 cars are currently being upgraded with new software which increases traction power, it was unfortunately forgotten about initially! Most of the slow running is due to having a train in the section ahead!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 0:34:59 GMT
Would I be right in saying that extra braking steps would be welcome on the 378s especially with the high frequencies being spoken about here? Apparently the 3 step Westcode braking system is capable of 7 steps of service braking, BR when it first came out insisted on only 3 because it was cheaper.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2015 5:48:40 GMT
So much for an orbital London Overground I don't understand this comment - there is no reduction in service on any part of the orbit, and it seems that 2018 will see frequencies increase on the southern limb..
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 16, 2015 7:00:20 GMT
So much for an orbital London Overground How do you mean? The London Overground orbits London quite happily doesn't it? Having to change a couple of times to do the full circle doesn't disqualify it for me.
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Post by melikepie on Oct 16, 2015 7:51:22 GMT
I mean, with the Clapham Junction service cut to Dalston Junction means it is no longer quite two halves of a circle. To me it doesn't work as well
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 16, 2015 9:15:40 GMT
I mean, with the Clapham Junction service cut to Dalston Junction means it is no longer quite two halves of a circle. To me it doesn't work as well Nevertheless it still exists as three parts of a circle and it's still orbital. In the death those travelling from Highbury can go the other way round if they really feel the need to avoid a simple interchange. Canonbury passengers can change either at Highbury or Dalston - easy. If it gives a more reliable service then it's to be welcomed. Mind you, if I lived in Highbury or Canonbury I'd get a tube from to Victoria and then a short hop from there to Clapham on NR. The only time I ever did that journey on LO was just to say I had, a complete waste of life but it ticked a box!
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Post by Chris M on Oct 16, 2015 11:12:37 GMT
I did the full circuit for a photography project, photographing the entrance to every station and catching the train in between (although I walked Rotherithe to Surrey Quays (as it's quicker than up and down) and Hampstead Heath to Gospel Oak (because of disruption, possibly a signal failure somewhere). It took me about 8 hours iirc.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 16, 2015 11:42:36 GMT
I mean, with the Clapham Junction service cut to Dalston Junction means it is no longer quite two halves of a circle. To me it doesn't work as well But how many people go more than half way round anyway? A handful of people travelling from Queens Road Peckham (and points west) to Cally Road & B (and points west) will either have to change twice or go the long way round, and for most of them there are quicker alternatives through the middle anyway, e.g via the Northern Line from Clapham or London Bridge, or via Thameslink and West Hampstead.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 16, 2015 13:51:47 GMT
I mean, with the Clapham Junction service cut to Dalston Junction means it is no longer quite two halves of a circle. To me it doesn't work as well But how many people go more than half way round anyway? A handful of people travelling from Queens Road Peckham (and points west) to Cally Road & B (and points west) will either have to change twice or go the long way round, and for most of them there are quicker alternatives through the middle anyway, e.g via the Northern Line from Clapham or London Bridge, or via Thameslink and West Hampstead. People who are cash poor will want to avoid zone 1, but on that score these people probably won't be affected by the changes as they will want to travel via Clapham Junction - because Shoreditch High Street is in zone 1. Simon
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Post by phil on Oct 17, 2015 18:33:31 GMT
But how many people go more than half way round anyway? A handful of people travelling from Queens Road Peckham (and points west) to Cally Road & B (and points west) will either have to change twice or go the long way round, and for most of them there are quicker alternatives through the middle anyway, e.g via the Northern Line from Clapham or London Bridge, or via Thameslink and West Hampstead. People who are cash poor will want to avoid zone 1, but on that score these people probably won't be affected by the changes as they will want to travel via Clapham Junction - because Shoreditch High Street is in zone 1. Simon I thought Shoreditch only counted as Zone 1 if you entered or exited the station there. If you remained on the train and didn't get off then your journey would be covered by Zone 2.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 17, 2015 19:07:02 GMT
No, Shoreditch High Steet is a normal Zone 1 station. There are (or were) posters about it at Canada Water, and probably elsewhere, noting that you will be charged for zone 1 and/or must have zone 1 on your travelcard to travel through SHS
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Post by phil on Oct 17, 2015 20:55:21 GMT
No, Shoreditch High Steet is a normal Zone 1 station. There are (or were) posters about it at Canada Water, and probably elsewhere, noting that you will be charged for zone 1 and/or must have zone 1 on your travelcard to travel through SHS Are you sure this has always been the case? I could have sworn that before the ELL extension opened there was lots of controversy about the status of Shoreditch and as a result it opened with slightly odd arrangements compared to other Zone 1 stations when it opened. Maybe they were done away with as part of the deal to take the ELL to Clapham Junction and got drowned out by protests over the SLL withdrawal.
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Post by csalem on Oct 17, 2015 21:18:38 GMT
Did "Secrets of the Overground" not state that you can travel from Clapham to Highbury via ELL but not be charged for passing thru Zone 1 as the system doesn't know if you went ELL or WLL?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 17, 2015 21:37:52 GMT
No, Shoreditch High Steet is a normal Zone 1 station. There are (or were) posters about it at Canada Water, and probably elsewhere, noting that you will be charged for zone 1 and/or must have zone 1 on your travelcard to travel through SHS Are you sure this has always been the case? I could have sworn that before the ELL extension opened there was lots of controversy about the status of Shoreditch and as a result it opened with slightly odd arrangements compared to other Zone 1 stations when it opened. Maybe they were done away with as part of the deal to take the ELL to Clapham Junction and got drowned out by protests over the SLL withdrawal. I vaguely remember those discussions, but as far as I know Shoreditch High Street being fully in Zone 1 was always a condition for extending the Overground over National Rail tracks - to avoid abstracting revenue from Southeastern into London Bridge IIRC. The only surprise on opening was Hoxton being in both zones 1 and 2.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 17, 2015 21:38:30 GMT
No, Shoreditch High Steet is a normal Zone 1 station. There are (or were) posters about it at Canada Water, and probably elsewhere, noting that you will be charged for zone 1 and/or must have zone 1 on your travelcard to travel through SHS Are you sure this has always been the case? I could have sworn that before the ELL extension opened there was lots of controversy about the status of Shoreditch and as a result it opened with slightly odd arrangements compared to other Zone 1 stations when it opened. Maybe they were done away with as part of the deal to take the ELL to Clapham Junction and got drowned out by protests over the SLL withdrawal. AFAIK there were no "odd arrangements" at SHS when it opened. It's always been in Zone 1 since opening. The only journeys where the system is "blind" to the route in fares terms is Canonbury - Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction. The fare is charged as via Zone 2 only. This is no different to other journeys where it is impossible for the system to "detect" your route. Examples are Highbury to Richmond and Stratford to Richmond (using Overground or LU, NOT using a NR service via a London terminal). This is because there is a direct Overground train via a cheaper route and no closed / gated interchange if you travel via Zone 1. I only know this from having spent too much time looking in the Single Fares Finder. A whole pile of journeys that use the Overground are priced via Zone 1 regardless of route. In theory you can go from Highbury to Denmark Hill the long way round via Clapham Junction but you'd be charged as if you went via Shoreditch High Street. If you want a non Z1 fare you must go "backwards" via Stratford and the Jubilee Line and touch on the pink validator at Stratford. You will note that TfL do not specify Canada Water as a pink validator touch in because people would go via Shoreditch anyway, dash off the train, touch pink and dash back in the train!! The decision to put SHS in Zone 1 was part of the package that was agreed to build ELL phase 2 from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction. TfL were forced to put SHS in Zone 1 to avoid revenue abstraction from other TOCs that run into London termini, they were required to NEVER have a LOROL train run into Victoria (abstraction again) and to scrap the proposal for a Bellingham - Victoria service to part replace the SLL. In short the DfT were complete bleeps and Boris was "done over" and the people who've paid are the passengers using the ELL. OK we got a new bit of useful railway and that's good but at what cost to people?
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Post by Chris M on Oct 17, 2015 21:42:32 GMT
Did "Secrets of the Overground" not state that you can travel from Clapham to Highbury via ELL but not be charged for passing thru Zone 1 as the system doesn't know if you went ELL or WLL? Quite possibly, but that is because all Oyster fares are priced as point-to-point journeys unless you tap a pink reader or make an out-of-station interchange. Thus all journeys that have no proven route are defined as travelling through certain zones, regardless of which route you took. Just because Clapham Junction to Highbury (and probably also Clapham Junction to Canonbury) are defined as zone 2 only journeys, does not mean that Canada Water to Highbury is not priced as a zone 1 and 2 journey. There are other anomalies as well, e.g. I believe Richmond to Stratford is defined as travelling via zone 1 even if you take the Overground all the way.
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Post by phil on Oct 20, 2015 17:42:43 GMT
Are you sure this has always been the case? I could have sworn that before the ELL extension opened there was lots of controversy about the status of Shoreditch and as a result it opened with slightly odd arrangements compared to other Zone 1 stations when it opened. Maybe they were done away with as part of the deal to take the ELL to Clapham Junction and got drowned out by protests over the SLL withdrawal. AFAIK there were no "odd arrangements" at SHS when it opened. It's always been in Zone 1 since opening. The only journeys where the system is "blind" to the route in fares terms is Canonbury - Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction. The fare is charged as via Zone 2 only. This is no different to other journeys where it is impossible for the system to "detect" your route. Examples are Highbury to Richmond and Stratford to Richmond (using Overground or LU, NOT using a NR service via a London terminal). This is because there is a direct Overground train via a cheaper route and no closed / gated interchange if you travel via Zone 1. I only know this from having spent too much time looking in the Single Fares Finder. A whole pile of journeys that use the Overground are priced via Zone 1 regardless of route. In theory you can go from Highbury to Denmark Hill the long way round via Clapham Junction but you'd be charged as if you went via Shoreditch High Street. If you want a non Z1 fare you must go "backwards" via Stratford and the Jubilee Line and touch on the pink validator at Stratford. You will note that TfL do not specify Canada Water as a pink validator touch in because people would go via Shoreditch anyway, dash off the train, touch pink and dash back in the train!! The decision to put SHS in Zone 1 was part of the package that was agreed to build ELL phase 2 from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction. TfL were forced to put SHS in Zone 1 to avoid revenue abstraction from other TOCs that run into London termini, they were required to NEVER have a LOROL train run into Victoria (abstraction again) and to scrap the proposal for a Bellingham - Victoria service to part replace the SLL. In short the DfT were complete bleeps and Boris was "done over" and the people who've paid are the passengers using the ELL. OK we got a new bit of useful railway and that's good but at what cost to people? Err, what you have just said doesn't add up. If SHS was always a zone 1 station for all journeys when the original ELL extension (to Dalston & Highbury) was opened, there would have been no need to mention it (let alone alter the arrangements) in connection with the later extension to Clapham Junction (which post dates the original extension by a good couple of years). Thus while I don't dispute that SHS has been in zone 1 ever since the Clapham extension was given the go ahead, is it not possible that before that, if you travelled over the ELL but did not alight at SHS you would not be charged for a zone 1 journey.
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Post by flippyff on Oct 20, 2015 18:20:41 GMT
Wasn't there something odd like SHS was in zone 1 but if your travelled from Dalston Junction and stations south thereof, you were only charged a zone 2 fare?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 21, 2015 8:35:11 GMT
AFAIK there were no "odd arrangements" at SHS when it opened. It's always been in Zone 1 since opening. The only journeys where the system is "blind" to the route in fares terms is Canonbury - Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington - Clapham Junction. The fare is charged as via Zone 2 only. This is no different to other journeys where it is impossible for the system to "detect" your route. Examples are Highbury to Richmond and Stratford to Richmond (using Overground or LU, NOT using a NR service via a London terminal). This is because there is a direct Overground train via a cheaper route and no closed / gated interchange if you travel via Zone 1. I only know this from having spent too much time looking in the Single Fares Finder. A whole pile of journeys that use the Overground are priced via Zone 1 regardless of route. In theory you can go from Highbury to Denmark Hill the long way round via Clapham Junction but you'd be charged as if you went via Shoreditch High Street. If you want a non Z1 fare you must go "backwards" via Stratford and the Jubilee Line and touch on the pink validator at Stratford. You will note that TfL do not specify Canada Water as a pink validator touch in because people would go via Shoreditch anyway, dash off the train, touch pink and dash back in the train!! The decision to put SHS in Zone 1 was part of the package that was agreed to build ELL phase 2 from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction. TfL were forced to put SHS in Zone 1 to avoid revenue abstraction from other TOCs that run into London termini, they were required to NEVER have a LOROL train run into Victoria (abstraction again) and to scrap the proposal for a Bellingham - Victoria service to part replace the SLL. In short the DfT were complete bleeps and Boris was "done over" and the people who've paid are the passengers using the ELL. OK we got a new bit of useful railway and that's good but at what cost to people? Err, what you have just said doesn't add up. If SHS was always a zone 1 station for all journeys when the original ELL extension (to Dalston & Highbury) was opened, there would have been no need to mention it (let alone alter the arrangements) in connection with the later extension to Clapham Junction (which post dates the original extension by a good couple of years). Thus while I don't dispute that SHS has been in zone 1 ever since the Clapham extension was given the go ahead, is it not possible that before that, if you travelled over the ELL but did not alight at SHS you would not be charged for a zone 1 journey. Makes perfect sense to me. The ELL didn't reopen with a full service until May 2010. The current Mayor spent a fair amount of time in the first half of his first term trying to get the agreement over ELL Phase 2 which was a manifesto commitment. AFAIAA the line opened with SHS in Zone 1 and requiring Zone 1 tickets to travel in, out and across it. Looking through the London Reconnections archive of articles on the East London Line and South London Line it's evident that the agreements to build the ELL Phase 2 and its conditions were in place *before* the ELL Phase 1 opened. Searching in Google for "East London Line Phase 2" brings up this letter from Ian Brown which sets out that agreement was reached in 2009 to build ELL Phase 2. Note the letter is a Word document download. We all know the agreement included SHS being in Zone 1 to avoid revenue abstraction from other TOCs. Look at the date of the letter and compare with that for ELL Phase 1 opening. If you wish to disbelieve what I'm saying then that's fine but I don't know what else I can do to "prove" the point about the fare zone treatment.
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Post by flippyff on Oct 22, 2015 7:21:57 GMT
Wasn't there something odd like SHS was in zone 1 but if your travelled from Dalston Junction and stations south thereof, you were only charged a zone 2 fare? I knew there is/was something quirky about the fares, seems I got it round the wrong way though. www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mindthegap/2010/04/the_curious_case_of_moving_sho.htmlAccording to TfL's Single Fare Finder, Haggerston (Z2) to SHS(Z1) is £2.30 anytime, whereas Shadwell (Z2) to SHS (Z1) is £2.30 peak and £2.10 at any other time (and vice versa) so it appears the above no longer applies.
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Post by longhedge on Oct 22, 2015 14:46:41 GMT
Hopefully not too far off topic.
Just noticed the speed limit inbound/ outbound to Clapham Junction Platforms 1 and 2 has been raised from 10 mph to 15 mph.
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