Unification of the London area rail network

Probably in time more of the suburban railways will come under the TFL umbrella, however as has been mentioned here before there is a lot of political powers by local MPs in the way of TFL taking over suburban TOCs and as a result, there is some hardwork ahead if TFL wish to do as you suggest.

I think the zone system works fine as it is. There was a time where zones played a part on the bus network, but since it has become a flat fare, I think it would be difficult to go back to the zoned fare system.

Perhaps a touch-out reader at every stop, like on the DLR? Can't see it somehow

The zonal system has some curious anomalies that need sorting out, but generally works OK. I'd advocating reducing the zones to 4 to make life simpler.

I think there is zero prospect of a unified bus and rail fare structure. The economics of the respective modes are different and TfL is being pushed towards the elimination of all operating subsidy for rail modes. As Sir Peter Hendy said before he left he expected there to be zero revenue subsidy by 2020 - TfL's current business plan shows this happening.

Buses are a completely different thing - a lot of their funding is related to concessions granted to children, those on benefits / seeking work plus the Freedom Pass is used far more on buses. Also the operating cost element of the buses budget funds capital investment in vehicles by the operators through the route contract payments. Other posters have rightly pointed out the real practical issue about a move away from a flat fare on buses. My own view is that something will eventually have to be done to avoid a loss of short hop travellers being put off by an ever increasing flat fare. Whether you can get Londoners to touch in and out on buses properly I'm not so sure. It works in Singapore but that's a rather smaller population and one which is rather more "compliant" than Londoners usually are.

I would also question whether you want bus fares to be costing £5+ for longer distance trips in the peaks as the tube and rail services cost. I also can't see a move in the opposite direction where tube and rail fares fall to match those of buses - especially on journeys into or across Zone 1 which is priced at a premium because of the congestion. In outer areas then we already have bus and rail / tube fare equivalence at off peak times and I suspect that is what has caused a number of bus routes to lose patronage while people have transferred to the Overground and some bits of the tube.

We've done the debate about TfL taking over suburban rail services many times and a lot of rail enthusiasts are very UNimpressed with TfL's rail operation. It is also clear from recent statements from Isabel Dedring and Mike Brown that TfL's thinking has changed and they are not necessarily pursuing a direct takeover of every TOC's inner suburban services. The hints seem to be pointing to a greater use of the Mayor / TfL's powers to increment future franchise specifications to raise service quality and frequency and to possibly fund specific investments to remove / ease bottlenecks so more trains can run on suburban lines. Whether TfL will have the funding to do this and whether the DfT are remotely interested remains to be seen as does the view of the next Mayor come May 2016. We may see a completely different approach to rail and Overground come May 2016 depending on who wins the Mayoralty. I am sceptical that we will see much happen between now and May - it's only 8 months after all.

I think its in Singapore where they had to disable the exit card readers between bus stops... for this very purpose.

Simon

There's an interesting feature on BBC news today (London area) about the North/South London disparity between what rail services 5-10 year olds can travel free on. This is largely down to what comes under TfL control:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34064699

It seems that transport politics and the inadequacy of todays fare collection systems prohibit a fair fare for a number of journeys - particularly short ones. Your comment highlights the disadvantages of having to take 2 or 3 buses to reach your destination. Many cities used to offer a transfer ticket if you needed to board a second bus so you didn't have to pay twice. Obviously this facility has ceased with 'slap and go' payment methods. Your idea of having a time limit within which you could change buses could work, but that would be in the financial favour of passengers and not TfL. Short distance bus travel has been virtually killed off, as I would imagine that only passengers who travel free make short bus journeys. Let's not forget, whatever the flat fare is you are still forcibly paying to go from one end of the route to the other. I expect some members will now be offering numerous examples of long journeys that can be made for a pittance - that's great, but (paid) short distance bus travel is overpriced.   

My understanding is that buses in London have never offered transfer tickets (except in the event of curtailed workings, and then often only reluctantly).

Whenever you have a flat fare you will always overpay for short journeys and underpay for long ones. Although given that a bus has to run end to end whether it's full or empty, I don't know how much additional cost there is to transport a passenger thirty stops over transporting them 5 stops.

Do you have a single shred of evidence to prove that short distance bus travel in London is being "killed off"? I still evidence that that is the case - in fact I see the contrary. There is far MORE short hop travel in London than other cities. I accept I am just sharing my own observations but if you have some stats about short hop travel I'd love to see them.

Last time I looked Oyster PAYG and Contactless permitted the use of tram to tram, bus to tram and tram to bus transfers in Croydon and at New Addington. Therefore such facilities are provided for within the existing technology. The extent of the tram to bus free transfer scheme is to be expanded in October when bus services in the area are changed.

I would argue that the move to Oyster and use of bank cards has encouraged travel because almost everyone has a card in their pocket, they don't have to worry about knowing the fare by distance if using the bus and can just hop on the bus. Looking at TfL's own stats shows a vast increase in bus usage since 2000 - up 67%. Part of encouraging that has been a move to simple fares and convenient technology. If Oyster is so poor, which is how I'm interpreting your comments about "inadequacy" then why does every area in the country want "a system like London's Oyster Card"? Are they are all deluded?

TfL have provided figures, in response to questions to the Mayor, about the cost of a bus transfer / 1 hour ticket. The financial cost is something like £50m-£70m per annum depending on exactly how you price the scheme and if you do anything to the base cost of a bus journey. All the politicians who promise to implement fare freezes and 1 hour bus tickets completely fail to say how it gets paid for. Money doesn't fall out of the sky - someone pays or something else is not done. I am fed up with asking them via Twitter what choices they'd make. Given their failure to answer my reading is that they have no clue as to where the money would come from. Do you stop making bus stops accessible? Do you not improve bus stations? Do you continue the 8 year effective freeze on bus service improvements? Taking that money out of the budget would fund a 1 hour bus ticket but what's the point if the buses are so full you can't get on them and there's no money to add any more buses? In my view that is the very serious choice we face. We have precisely the same issue on the tube, DLR, Overground and Crossrail. Cutting or freezing fares means that the base revenue level does not rise and you permanently lose that increment into the future. The only way TfL will be able to maintain its credit rating for the very substantial amount of debt it carries is to then reduce spending on services and capital investment so that funders will still consider it to be operating in a financially prudent and sustainable way.

Whether we like it or not we have a funding structure that is predicated on an ever larger funding contribution from fare payers. This has been political policy for the better part of 20+ years regardless of party and the voters have voted for it. In every general election transport never gets anywhere near the top 15 of key issues for voters in the election campaign. This is why it never receives any great attention from any party except when people panic about petrol prices and some Home Counties commuters bitch about the cost of the (hugely subsidised) season tickets. Nothing is going to change until the voters priorities change. Coming back to London it's pretty clear the Chancellor's priorities are elsewhere and not much funding will flow to London post Crossrail (IMO). This poses serious issues for the next Mayor and we must await the outcome of the spending review to see what settlement TfL receives. If the Chancellor continues past trends then expect a massive cut to revenue grant posing serious risks to the bus network's funding. All that will happen is that fares will go up and services may well start to be cut back. I think there is negligible prospect of the funding structure changing substantially for London's transport network in the next 5 years. To start shifting the burden back on to the taxpayer is not going to happen under a Tory government. They would prevent the Mayor whacking up the council tax not that the TfL element of the precept funds very much at all.

We also need to remember that TfL forks out hundreds of millions of pounds a year to pay interest on money it's borrowed or bonds that have been issued. It is also required to earn a surplus on Crossrail's operation so that part of Crossrail's funding is repaid from fare revenue. I believe that is a statutory requirement so it can't get away from that. We therefore have a stark choice - you continue as now with a reasonable level of funding but highish fares for people; OR You cut or freeze fares but have to scrap elements of planned improvements or cut back services to keep the costs of running the business broadly in line with the available funding; OR you somehow negotiate a completely new funding arrangement with government and you get them to enact the required legislation changes and you also get Government to fund whatever the transition costs are. Good luck on that last option - IMO, of course.

I don't think anyone is "rolling over and accepting" tfl stats as you suggest. We only have the information that TFL provides us and maybe just a bit of observation made by joe public. We also shouldn't present opinion as fact as you did in your opening part of your post.

It is fair to say that everyone either uses Oyster or Contactless. (The remaining have freedom passes or some of the old hexagon rover style tickets, but rare!). With this in mind, that means most people will be capped when doing journeys, but that doesn't mean everyone who caps also does short distance

There are very few which operate entirely within Greater London:
FGW - Greenford shuttle
SWT -Hounslow loop - but note that half the trains via Hounslow go to Weybridge
- Kingston loop
- Chessington
Southern - outer South London loop (via Crystal Palace)
- East and West Croydon terminators
- Beckenham Junction
SE - Orpington (both routes)
- Bromley North
- Woolwich/Sidcup/Bexleyheath circulars

and of those, all but Greenford and Bromley North share tracks and stations with other NR services.

Oyster already extends to several stations outside Greater London, which makes for a slightly more coherent network
Hampton Court
Epsom (both routes) - but note that most trains continue to Guildford, Dorking or Horsham - I would not include the Epsom line, as all stations after the diverge of the Chessington branch are in Surrey (Worcester Park being, quite literally, a borderline case)
Epsom Downs
Tattenham Corner
Caterham

If you extend one or two stops out you can start to get some sort of integrated network
St Albans (which will also get you the Wimbledon loop)
Shepperton ( a curious anomaly, as the last three stations on this line are not Oystered but are only connected to the rest of the network through Oysterland
Dartford
Weybridge via Hounslow - but if you do that it would be illogical not to include Windsor & Eton Riverside (and possibly also Windsor & Eton Central?), and also the Woking locals.
The Catford Loop service to Sevenoaks
Possibly the GN inners to Welwyn and Hertford

But you would need some buy-in from the various Home Counties councils.