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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 13:25:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 14:09:22 GMT
It's in the Evening Standard too, albeit with a slightly different timeline (ES say 2030 at the earliest).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 14:17:05 GMT
It's in the Evening Standard too, albeit with a slightly different timeline (ES say 2030 at the earliest). The normal way LU's targets slip its likely to be closer to 2030 if not beyond. A line converted for full automation with retro fitted PED's is a completely new thing to London.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 29, 2014 15:33:41 GMT
As is also usual, they don't let the facts get in the way of the headline Headline says "London Underground Document Predicts Driverless Trains On Pic From 2022", and the introduction claims "The RMT has seen a London Underground document which states trains 'with or without drivers' could be introduced on the Piccadilly Line from 2022 - just eight years away.", yet the story says: 2016 Contract let to the chosen supplier for New Tube on the Piccadilly line with options for operation with and without a driver. 2022 First New Tube for London is introduced with an operator (driver) on board which slowly replaces the old stock. 2027 Earliest New Tube for London could be driverless once all New Tubes are running on the line and PEDs fully installed. They've just twisted the facts to suit themselves!
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Post by rummer on Sept 29, 2014 17:04:42 GMT
Jim your right there about the target slip do you remember connect 2000 which was very late and just renamed connect
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 29, 2014 17:28:52 GMT
PEDs being retro-fitted. Great - I can see years of continual closures ahead
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 29, 2014 17:35:26 GMT
PEDs being retro-fitted. Great - I can see years of continual closures ahead The proposed PEDs are of a type used on the Paris Metro and fairly simple to install.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 20:00:11 GMT
Did you know Hong Kong's MTR system was retrofitted with Platform Doors between 1998 and 2011? ... a major undertaking in itself.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 29, 2014 21:36:36 GMT
It's in the Evening Standard too, albeit with a slightly different timeline (ES say 2030 at the earliest). The normal way LU's targets slip its likely to be closer to 2030 if not beyond. A line converted for full automation with retro fitted PED's is a completely new thing to London. Could you try persuading management to make that slippage nearer to 20300, please? I presume these would be driven by computer. Which, of course, are never prone to human error. Oh, wait-what was that flesh and blood software developer I just spotted; or was it a hardware engineer?
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Post by rummer on Sept 30, 2014 13:02:05 GMT
I don't believe the Evening Standard or any newspaper to be honest. according to Evening Standard we are driving 1972 stock on the Pic. As for platform doors i cant see these being introduced on the underground in the near future because of the amount of problems and cost they had on the Jubilee extention
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 13:29:08 GMT
It also looks like The Picc line will need to be worked completely separate from the SSR due to the need for level platforms for the PEDs so I assume the Uxbridge branch will either be operated as a separate shuttle service or as a branch of the District or Met lines.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 30, 2014 14:15:47 GMT
It also looks like The Picc line will need to be worked completely separate from the SSR due to the need for level platforms for the PEDs so I assume the Uxbridge branch will either be operated as a separate shuttle service or as a branch of the District or Met lines. If you swap the Ealing Broadway and Uxbridge lines between the District and Picadilly, the platform height problem on the Uxbridge line disappears. Where you find the extra S stock from is a question though - maybe more Chiltern and less Met to Amersham? Ealing Common is a problem? However PEDs suggest a solution - non-stop trains can pass through safely so, why not have only the Picc (using PEDs) call there? Passengers to/from the District would have to travel via Acton Town
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 14:19:13 GMT
There are major problems with retro fitting PEDs. Unless you fit PED equipment on the old stock you wouldn't be able to install the PEDs until the old stock had been replaced, an expensive thing to do with stock that is heading for the scrap yard. If you did then the doors on the new stock would have to be in same place as the old stock so they could both use the PEDs. The obvious problem with that is the new stock is intended to replace the 72s, the 73s and the 92s, all of which have doors in different places so you'd need custom made cars for each line.
My money is that we're going to be running without PEDs like the DLR.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 14:46:26 GMT
There are major problems with retro fitting PEDs. Unless you fit PED equipment on the old stock you wouldn't be able to install the PEDs until the old stock had been replaced, an expensive thing to do with stock that is heading for the scrap yard. If you did then the doors on the new stock would have to be in same place as the old stock so they could both use the PEDs. The obvious problem with that is the new stock is intended to replace the 72s, the 73s and the 92s, all of which have doors in different places so you'd need custom made cars for each line. My money is that we're going to be running without PEDs like the DLR. The new trains would need a driver on board until all the 73s and signalling is replaced so I suspect the final PED installation will take place once all the new stock is in place. The document does state full automation isn't possible without PEDs and like the ticket office closures this is what the company seems to be aiming for.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 18:18:11 GMT
The new trains would need a driver on board until all the 73s and signalling is replaced so I suspect the final PED installation will take place once all the new stock is in place. The document does state full automation isn't possible without PEDs and like the ticket office closures this is what the company seems to be aiming for. Full automation is possible without PEDs as it isn't a legal requirement, if it is how does the DLR stay in operation and why was it allowed to open the Stratford International branch without PEDs two years ago? I wonder if when the driverless trains spread to the Bakerloo would they install PEDs on the Network Rail platforms from Queens Park onwards and will the London Overground staff who work on those stations have to get PED training? I did PED training when I was on the JLE, they teach how to break them in an emergency but sadly we never got to smash one........
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 20:42:53 GMT
The new trains would need a driver on board until all the 73s and signalling is replaced so I suspect the final PED installation will take place once all the new stock is in place. The document does state full automation isn't possible without PEDs and like the ticket office closures this is what the company seems to be aiming for. Full automation is possible without PEDs as it isn't a legal requirement, if it is how does the DLR stay in operation and why was it allowed to open the Stratford International branch without PEDs two years ago? I wonder if when the driverless trains spread to the Bakerloo would they install PEDs on the Network Rail platforms from Queens Park onwards and will the London Overground staff who work on those stations have to get PED training? I did PED training when I was on the JLE, they teach how to break them in an emergency but sadly we never got to smash one........ I didn't say it was a legal requirement just managements own claim that they don't believe full automation without PEDs is possible. We've been more or less told when ATO comes on the District we will be driving trains in trip coco mode on the national rail sections so I would guess on the Bakerloo a member of staff will need to board the train and drive it from a driving panel similar to the DLR. Manet the complicated situation is one of the reasons the Bakerloo modernisation has been put back.
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Post by abe on Oct 1, 2014 7:30:26 GMT
In Paris, when Line 1 was converted, the driverless trains were a variant of the driver-operated trains that already ran. The door spacing was the same, making the installation of PEDs rather easier. Once the PEDs were installed and working, the driver-operated trains were gradually withdrawn and replaced by the driverless. The PEDs aren't full-height like on the Jubilee line extension, which made fitting them rather easier. See www.ratp.fr/fr/ratp/r_108648/l-automatisation-de-la-ligne-1-un-projet-de-service/ for more detail (in French!)
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Post by metman on Oct 1, 2014 17:58:23 GMT
Yes I noticed several lines used half height peds which seemed to work well in Paris.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 15:48:18 GMT
This would completely change the Piccadilly Line and it's reputation. At the moment, the Piccadilly line is considered one of the more Classical London Underground lines, with beautiful stations with original tile work from the early 1900s from when the line was first constructed, and with the 1973 stock trains which are second oldest (I think) on the whole tube network and still manual driven. However, if this plan goes forward in the future, all of that could become a thing of the past. I really hope they keep the original tile work and construction of the stations, but just add PEDs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 15:57:35 GMT
However, I have a feeling that this could all just be a rumour or that article is fake. It would take millions of pounds for this idea to work, and on a classical line like the Piccadilly I'm not even sure if this is possible.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 15:59:01 GMT
However, I have a feeling that this could all just be a rumour or that article is fake. It would take millions of pounds for this idea to work, and on a classical line like the Piccadilly I'm not even sure if this is possible. Not millions but billions and its not fake.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 13:47:19 GMT
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Post by rsdworker on Oct 9, 2014 17:17:42 GMT
the Full automatic trains can operate without PEDS - example Lyon metro line D - which has no PEDS fitted also some places have partial PEDS fitted examples Copenhagen Metro which has Overground stations without PEDS (except Airport station which fitted with PEDS) DLR has no PED fitted - this would work in london underground - if they trialed on Central line with exisiting ATO - driver just walk through train with remote control to command the train or small panels located throughout train to imitate train for departure after platform checks
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 17:54:47 GMT
DLR has no PED fitted - this would work in london underground - if they trialed on Central line with exisiting ATO - driver just walk through train with remote control to command the train or small panels located throughout train to imitate train for departure after platform checks I'm really looking forward to seeing how that works at Holborn eastbound in the evening peak.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 23:15:25 GMT
the Full automatic trains can operate without PEDS - example Lyon metro line D - which has no PEDS fitted also some places have partial PEDS fitted examples Copenhagen Metro which has Overground stations without PEDS (except Airport station which fitted with PEDS) DLR has no PED fitted - this would work in london underground - if they trialed on Central line with exisiting ATO - driver just walk through train with remote control to command the train or small panels located throughout train to imitate train for departure after platform checks Management has said full automation can't happen without PEDs from their own leaked document to managers and a timescale is on it also. Boris has today said PEDs will be installed in this video Here Watch from the 1 minute point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 1:08:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 3:54:07 GMT
I'll be interested to see how they're going to fit PEDs on the Central Line platforms at Bank.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 4:39:03 GMT
I'll be interested to see how they're going to fit PEDs on the Central Line platforms at Bank. They'll probably end up with an exemption of having PEDs at severely curved stations in the usual way that if it doesn't work within the rules we change them, thats if they give up completely with PEDs after doing the Picc for following lines.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 9:59:43 GMT
They'll probably end up with an exemption of having PEDs at severely curved stations in the usual way that if it doesn't work within the rules we change them, thats if they give up completely with PEDs after doing the Picc for following lines. There aren't any rules to be exempted from, the JLE only has PEDs on sub surface stations, Canning Town, West Ham and Stratford are all PEDless, none of the newly built stations on the DLR in open or tunnel section have PEDs, PEDs are a luxury rather than a legal necessity.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 14:47:49 GMT
They'll probably end up with an exemption of having PEDs at severely curved stations in the usual way that if it doesn't work within the rules we change them, thats if they give up completely with PEDs after doing the Picc for following lines. There aren't any rules to be exempted from, the JLE only has PEDs on sub surface stations, Canning Town, West Ham and Stratford are all PEDless, none of the newly built stations on the DLR in open or tunnel section have PEDs, PEDs are a luxury rather than a legal necessity. When I said change the rules I meant the rules management say now that full automation won't be possible. I meant they would backtrack when things start getting too complicated.
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