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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 12:17:19 GMT
Hello everyone,
Recently I found a YouTube video featuring a train that looked similar to the 1973 stock but didn't look 100% like a normal 1973 stock train at Cockfosters.
First off, there were no wrap-round windows on the front of the train where the drivers cab is - instead, flat windows take their place. Then the head lamps where in a rectangular shape, next to the red tail lights instead of large, round lamps like on a normal 1973 stock. Then there was the windows on the doors which didn't wrap around the top of the doors they stayed flat as well. And what I found strange about the train was that the "Underground" logo was painted in spaces where a window would be and some of the doors were painted white.
Is this a 1973 stock prototype or a 1960 stock that used to run on the Piccadilly line (I never thought the 1960 stock ran on the Piccadilly line)? And why is the train refurbished? Surly if there was a prototype 1973 stock it would be in the original silver and red livery?
Please correct me on anything above I've got wrong!
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 12:28:35 GMT
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Post by domh245 on Aug 2, 2014 12:32:31 GMT
The two DM cars are indeed 1960TS which is why they have the different windscreens, the light clusters having been retrofitted later. The trailer is 73TS, the fact that it appeared on the Piccadilly is a happy coincidence! Together this forms the TRT "Track Recording Train" - which goes around the network measuring various aspects of the railway (like track geometry) to make sure everything is as it should be, a bit like the NMT (flying banana) of network rail. Obviously, as it is full of equipment, it isn't passenger carrying, hence the painted over windows and doors. The whole thing is due to be replaced by a new version composed of 67TS and 72TS cars, the name of which evades me at the moment, but it is blue fronted with a yellow stripe (the one in juliang's avatar)
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 2, 2014 14:56:31 GMT
The replacement for the track recording train, is called the Asset Inspection Train, formed from 1967 tube stock and 1972 tube stock.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 2, 2014 16:22:55 GMT
I've had the pleasure of using 1960 tube stock on the Central Line hundreds of times between Woodford and Hainault when I was a small boy up until the type was withdrawn. Initially the were formed up with two carriages of standard stock painted white which if I were honest were bloody awful to travel in. In latter years these carriages were replaced with a single white painted 1938 tube stock carriage which was a lot more comfortable but lacked the ambience of the original Northern, Bakerloo and Piccadilly versions due to a rather rubbish refurb paint scheme.
Without wishing to sound all nostalgic or big headed or such stuff but those were the days.......mixed stock one lot of lines and a bit of interest as to what was going to turn up next. Now it's all red, white and blue and a nailed on certainty......aside from the District Line for a year or so more.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 17:47:37 GMT
Thanks everyone, now I know that these trains are track recording trains which makes a bit more sense now. So I take it that these trains help maintain the Piccadilly Line?
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Post by domh245 on Aug 2, 2014 18:53:24 GMT
It measures all the LU lines, deep level and SSL. It will help pinpoint areas which may be problematic (like track slips - as happened at east putney a while back) but doesn't actually do any maintenance itself. Only one train is in service (the 60/73TS hybird one) the new AIT is still yet to start proper service.
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hobbayne
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Post by hobbayne on Aug 2, 2014 19:06:06 GMT
I believe the 73 stock trailer was salvaged from the Wood Green fire damaged unit.
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Post by astock5000 on Aug 2, 2014 20:29:36 GMT
I believe the 73 stock trailer was salvaged from the Wood Green fire damaged unit. The trailer in the Track Recording Train was originally 514 (in unit 114-514-314), but never entered passenger service. DM 114 replaced 888, which was damaged in the fire, and unit 114-688-889 was later renumbered to 896-696-897. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 2, 2014 20:51:54 GMT
I believe the 73 stock trailer was salvaged from the Wood Green fire damaged unit. The trailer in the Track Recording Train was originally 514 (in unit 114-514-314), but never entered passenger service. DM 114 replaced 888, which was damaged in the fire, and unit 114-688-889 was later renumbered to 896-696-897. Was 114 aka 896 converted to allow it to operate in the middle of a train, as would be the case for the DMs of other double ended units? Or does 889 aka 897 always run in the middle (i.e the unit is operated as a single-ender?) Was the renumbering anything to do with this? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 9:52:18 GMT
It measures all the LU lines, deep level and SSL. It will help pinpoint areas which may be problematic (like track slips - as happened at east putney a while back) but doesn't actually do any maintenance itself. Only one train is in service (the 60/73TS hybird one) the new AIT is still yet to start proper service. Right, so all these trains do is measure the tracks for further maintenance? And how can the same train be able to run on every line? |
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Post by domh245 on Aug 9, 2014 10:12:01 GMT
Correct, they just measure the geometry, which is why they have the high power lamps in the space above the M door. It is worth noting that whilst two inspection trains exist, only one is in use (the one in the linked video) for the time being (so I'll focus on that one!). It can run on all the lines (obviously not at the same time!) as it is small enough to be cleared for all of them. It can't run on the Victoria, Central, Northern or Jubilee lines unless under a possession because it doesn't have the correct signalling systems fitted (but I'm happy to be corrected). As for accessing the lines, there are various crossovers between the lines, some more convenient than others, such as the the various interfaces between the district and picadilly lines, but there are the more complicated ones like the link between the northern and piccadilly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 11:01:41 GMT
It can't run on the Victoria, Central, Northern or Jubilee lines unless under a possession because it doesn't have the correct signalling systems fitted (but I'm happy to be corrected). It can run on the Central without a possession - I saw it at Snaresbrook on the eastbound not too long ago. But it can't run on any of the others (except to an Incompatible Train Movement Proceedure). I think it could run on the Vic in the old days, before it was resignalled, but I could easily be wrong about that. We talked about this a little bit here. I'm sure you'll remember this one, domh, but for others - there's loads of good info there. Right, so all these trains do is measure the tracks for further maintenance? Yeah I think the idea is that it does the initial pass, if you like, and identifies any areas which might need further inspection and then you presumably send in P-way or somebody to have a proper, thorough look with all the equipment and decide what - if anything - needs to be done, but I might be wrong - it could be enough on its own. |
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Post by br7mt on Aug 9, 2014 15:07:59 GMT
TRV has only ever run on the Victoria line in a possession during cancelled engineering hours - it was not fitted with the old Westinghouse system (unlike the 1964 Battery Locos).
AIT will eventually be fitted with signalling systems for all lines, the first being TBTC.
Both look at track geometry to a set of standards laid down by the P-Way Engineer. The idea is that you capture unexpected faults and also see how the track condition deteriorates over time, allowing planned maintenance intervention rather than a reactive one.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 15:11:35 GMT
TRV has only ever run on the Victoria line in a possession during cancelled engineering hours - it was not fitted with the old Westinghouse system (unlike the 1964 Battery Locos). AIT will eventually be fitted with signalling systems for all lines, the first being TBTC. Both look at track geometry to a set of standards laid down by the P-Way Engineer. The idea is that you capture unexpected faults and also see how the track condition deteriorates over time, allowing planned maintenance intervention rather than a reactive one. Regards, Dan Good answer, thanks for the clarification  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2014 18:37:17 GMT
I could be wrong, but the new inspection train suffers problems due to the weight of the train. This is due to having to fit equipment to run on each line.
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Post by br7mt on Aug 10, 2014 14:28:21 GMT
It doesn't now I've added two 67TS motor cars to it...
The problem is that most of the added weight is on the trailer cars, which has an adverse effect on wet weather performance. There was plenty of leeway for fitting the different signalling systems, however car 3079 has now been allocated as the ATP Car, which is planned to have one set of interfaces with the train systems for all the ATP systems.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by miff on Aug 11, 2014 22:55:52 GMT
Good news Dan. When will it enter service? And will this spell the end for the old TRT or are there plans to use both?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 17:01:18 GMT
It doesn't now I've added two 67TS motor cars to it... The problem is that most of the added weight is on the trailer cars, which has an adverse effect on wet weather performance. There was plenty of leeway for fitting the different signalling systems, however car 3079 has now been allocated as the ATP Car, which is planned to have one set of interfaces with the train systems for all the ATP systems. Regards, Dan Thanks for clearing that up Dan. By any chance are you the guy I was talking to on Saturday the 2nd who told me the train had to be moved from 1 road to make way for the heritage train at northfields? |
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Post by br7mt on Aug 12, 2014 19:16:15 GMT
Most likely, I try and beat the drum for it whenever I get the chance We are ever closer to testing, then there are some upgrades we want / need to do to it before it takes over from TRV. We are at the point where if the TRV fails the AIT can be made to work in 8 weeks (money and resource no object sort of thing). TRV won't be retired until Central Line ATP is fitted to the AIT, which is a year or so away yet. Regards, Dan |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 16:22:46 GMT
It can't run on the Victoria, Central, Northern or Jubilee lines unless under a possession because it doesn't have the correct signalling systems fitted (but I'm happy to be corrected). It can run on the Central without a possession - I saw it at Snaresbrook on the eastbound not too long ago. But it can't run on any of the others (except to an Incompatible Train Movement Proceedure). I think it could run on the Vic in the old days, before it was resignalled, but I could easily be wrong about that. We talked about this a little bit here. I'm sure you'll remember this one, domh, but for others - there's loads of good info there. Right, so all these trains do is measure the tracks for further maintenance? Yeah I think the idea is that it does the initial pass, if you like, and identifies any areas which might need further inspection and then you presumably send in P-way or somebody to have a proper, thorough look with all the equipment and decide what - if anything - needs to be done, but I might be wrong - it could be enough on its own. Thanks guys, but what about ATO? Surly the track recording train does not support that. Do they have to change a few things before the train can come on the tracks? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2014 16:37:16 GMT
It can run on the Central without a possession - I saw it at Snaresbrook on the eastbound not too long ago. But it can't run on any of the others (except to an Incompatible Train Movement Proceedure). I think it could run on the Vic in the old days, before it was resignalled, but I could easily be wrong about that. We talked about this a little bit here. I'm sure you'll remember this one, domh, but for others - there's loads of good info there. Yeah I think the idea is that it does the initial pass, if you like, and identifies any areas which might need further inspection and then you presumably send in P-way or somebody to have a proper, thorough look with all the equipment and decide what - if anything - needs to be done, but I might be wrong - it could be enough on its own. Thanks guys, but what about ATO? Surly the track recording train does not support that. Do they have to change a few things before the train can come on the tracks? It cannot run in ATO, but it is fitted with the Central line's ATP system to allow it to run on the tracks in Coded Manual. It has to be driven manually, it cannot be driven automatically, but it can be driven at full speed on the line during traffic hours as it is fitted with the necessary ATP. Please see this thread for more details. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 11:04:47 GMT
Thanks guys, but what about ATO? Surly the track recording train does not support that. Do they have to change a few things before the train can come on the tracks? It cannot run in ATO, but it is fitted with the Central line's ATP system to allow it to run on the tracks in Coded Manual. It has to be driven manually, it cannot be driven automatically, but it can be driven at full speed on the line during traffic hours as it is fitted with the necessary ATP. Please see this thread for more details. Thanks, so It can run on ATO lines but has to be driven manually? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 12:41:19 GMT
The TRT (or TRV - Track Recording Vehicle (they're the same thing, just two different names for the same train)) can run only on the Central line where it is driven manually under the ATP. It cannot run on any other ATO line and never has been able to. Its replacement - the AIT (Asset Inspection Train) - is set to be fitted with all the necessary equipment for lal lines and should be able to run everywhere but, again, I suspect it'll need to be driven manually wherever it goes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 16:34:13 GMT
The TRT (or TRV - Track Recording Vehicle (they're the same thing, just two different names for the same train)) can run only on the Central line where it is driven manually under the ATP. It cannot run on any other ATO line and never has been able to. Its replacement - the AIT (Asset Inspection Train) - is set to be fitted with all the necessary equipment for lal lines and should be able to run everywhere but, again, I suspect it'll need to be driven manually wherever it goes. Right, I see. But doesn't the ATO operation on the whole have to be switched off for the day/night when the TRT is recording? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 16:40:52 GMT
The TRT (or TRV - Track Recording Vehicle (they're the same thing, just two different names for the same train)) can run only on the Central line where it is driven manually under the ATP. It cannot run on any other ATO line and never has been able to. Its replacement - the AIT (Asset Inspection Train) - is set to be fitted with all the necessary equipment for lal lines and should be able to run everywhere but, again, I suspect it'll need to be driven manually wherever it goes. Right, I see. But doesn't the ATO operation on the whole have to be switched off for the day/night when the TRT is recording? Certainly not on the Central line. As I said earlier, I saw it on the east at Snaresbrook when I was heading west. I don't know about the Incompatible Train Movement Procedure on the other ATO lines, though, but there won't be any passenger trains running alongside the TRT, no. The ATC presumably isn't any good, I suspect the routes must be set manually from the control room. |
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Post by domh245 on Aug 26, 2014 17:59:12 GMT
The TRT (or TRV - Track Recording Vehicle (they're the same thing, just two different names for the same train)) can run only on the Central line where it is driven manually under the ATP. It cannot run on any other ATO line and never has been able to. Its replacement - the AIT (Asset Inspection Train) - is set to be fitted with all the necessary equipment for lal lines and should be able to run everywhere but, again, I suspect it'll need to be driven manually wherever it goes. Right, I see. But doesn't the ATO operation on the whole have to be switched off for the day/night when the TRT is recording? Nope. ATO is merely a computer that drives the train automatically, ATP is the rough type of computerised signalling system which allows this to happen. So provided that it has the right interface to pick up the ATP signals in terms of antennas, decoders and displays (in much the same way conventional stock has to have a functional tripcock to operate at line speed) - then it can run on that line, albeit driven manually. It may have the effect of causing some ATO trains to go slower because obviously it would be going slower, and the following train has to be a safe distance behind. Currently, the TRT only has central line APT and tripcocks fitted, so it can only run on conventional line. The new AIT will have Tripcocks, central line APT, and seltrac s40 (and possibly the victoria line DTG-R system - could someone confirm please?), so it will be able to operate on those lines. I do think that some poor wording by myself is probably to blame somewhat for the confusion - Instead of ATO line, I should really have said APT resignalled line. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 18:36:29 GMT
and possibly the victoria line DTG-R system - could someone confirm please? If I've understood dagdave correctly (see linked thread) it will get the S40 system first and it'll then get DTG-R later on: No, apart from normal tripcock mode the TRV only has Central Line ATP fitted. On the Victoria, Jubilee and Northern lines we now only run at night to an ITMP (Incompatible Train Movement Proceedure) which essentially means once all other trains are stabled on the line we can operate as sole train with current on. Currently the Asset Inspection Train (AIT) only has tripcock mode but will be fitted initially with TBTC then other signalling systems will follow. |
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Post by br7mt on Aug 26, 2014 20:34:53 GMT
Likely to be S40, Central Line, then DTG-R or SSL signalling system, depending on state of development. Until fitted it'll operate under ITMPs on the lines concerned.
Key aim is to ensure operation with ATP on all lines, which in turn allows operation in Traffic Hours again so that there is unhindered access to the railway in Engineering Hours. I can foresee operation on Central, Jubilee, Northern and Victoria lines being on 24 hour running nights to reduce impact on service of a non-ATO train.
As a side note think of an ATO equipped railway as needing electric ATP before it can even operate in automatic mode.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 10:49:16 GMT
Thank you everyone, now this makes more sense to me.
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