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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 2, 2013 21:01:10 GMT
Can anyone Help? I am 14 and I am making a small Documentary about the Victoria Line. Comparing the 1967 TS to the 2009 stock and other trains across the tube network. As the 1967 stock is now a museum piece at LTM and WPH. It is no impossible to find more about it. So I have written a Script about it and I would like someone to look at it and see if I have got all my facts correct or if you have something to make it more interesting or weird parts of the trains. Here It is: (N = Narration and V = what I will say, while I am Filming
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Post by Alight on Dec 2, 2013 21:38:14 GMT
I don't know of any published research that can attest this, but I suspect you're right!
That's right - the first full-scale automatic railway in the world
Correct!
That's right and might be worth noting its refurbishment during the mid-'00s, to which it reopened in 2007. Your description of other trains in the museum is probably just about right - I'd love to go on about the 1986 stock but it isn't really relevant. Remember to mention that the preserved '67 stock car was the same one the Queen rode in!
Correct. It is also worthy to note that '67 stock didn't provide any tip-up seats making it difficult in providing for customers with luggage, pushchairs and indeed wheelchair users.
Indeed - and is still the case on the '72 stock!
That's right. Also worth mentioning that the '09 stock has CCTV fitted in each car in the interests of security.
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Additional fact about the on-board CIS:
The '67 stock only had digital voice announcements (voiced by Emma Clarke), whereas the '09 stock has both digital voice announcements and dot matrix indicators. The voice on the '09 stock sounds similar but is actually Sarah Parnell (as heard on the C/S stock)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2013 22:50:57 GMT
V - The 2009 stock with a length of 130 meters and have a much faster acceleration and breaking capacity compare to the 67 stock, reducing journey times by approximately 5 minutes and increasing capacity. [/quote] 133 meters if you want to be more precise. Also the braking profiles are not all that different. It may be worth noting the the increased performance is mainly as a result of the 2009 stock having a modern traction system and having 75% motored axles as opposed to the 1967 Tube Stock having 50% motored axles. There were also command spots that the ATO read to control braking. It worked by matching tachometer pulses (wheel revolutions) to the frequency received from the command spot. V - On the 2009 stock the ATO system is controlled by a computer more advanced than the computer on the 1967 stock. It has detailed map of the line with all the braking points and stations mapped onto it making the headways between trains shorter and able to run 33 trains per hour during the peak and may be more in the future. [/quote] Maybe terminology, but the map contains stopping points, and the ATO dynamically calculates a stopping profile to the last stopping point within the limit of movement authority generated by the ATP. The ATP receives railway status information over the DTG-R radio (giving the occupancy and proceed status of the fixed blocks ahead), and uses this in order to generate a safe limit of movement authority to the next train ahead.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 4, 2013 5:42:24 GMT
There are lots of other things which might be mentioned.
For example the carrier wave system unique to the Victoria line which lasted sometime into the late 1980s (circa 1990 is when I was recovering the trackside equipment). Communications from train to controller transmitted via the running rails that predated train radio, the Vic line being the last line to be equipped with train radio.
I believe the Vic was the first line to have an on board driver PA system.
There was Identra, a system which read the train numbers off the front of the driving car for positive train identification although it didn't last long.
AFAIK there were 13 spots to control the speed of approach of 67 stock into the platform, the last of which was 0.8 mph. On the level gravity was enough to halt a train after the last spot. The spots allowed 67 stock to stop precisely,the feature being used to ensure the train stopped with the passenger doors opening onto the red carpet when the queen officially opened the line. Two of my former colleagues were present on that day to relocate the spot to the correct position for normal service as soon as that train had departed, it had been moved to allow the queen to walk off the train directly into a platform cross passage.
For signalling equipment No code was the same as 120 code, i.e. loss of code was failsafe.
[Off topic
The Vic was the first line with local CCTV (typically 5 cameras located at headwall and tailwall of each platform and in the booking hall although the switching matrix made provision for up to 8 cameras) and longline CCTV (on a single channel at 4MHz) throughout and the first with an integrated longline PA system. It also employed 8 track players and cartridges to play platform auto announcements over the local PA. Another first were the platform passenger information points (local intercom system) allowing communication with the 'station agent'. These PIPs were the forerunner of the later PAPs (Passenger Assistance Points fitted at Oxford Circus station and at Central line eastern stations)and the now familiar PHPs (Passenger Help Points popularly known as 'pill boxes').]
The Victoria line was also given a different tunnel telephone system known as the loop control system which was specially designed for it. The same basic system was subsequently used on the Picc western extension to Heathrow and on the original Jubilee line. The driver, however, still carried the once familiar tunnel telephone handset in the cab to clip onto the tunnel wires in an emergency. Modern stocks have them built into the train cabs.
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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 4, 2013 16:59:16 GMT
Making the Victoria Line was a Greathead Shield used?
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Post by bruce on Dec 4, 2013 18:59:44 GMT
CARRIER WAVE
Carrier Wave transmission/reception was through the TRACTION RAILS not the running rails.
IDENTRA
The 'IDENTRA' system in use on the Victoria Line is an adaptation of existing systems in use in Chigago and Stockholm modified to suit the needs of London Underground. The system relies on the train automatically projecting its description forwards from certain selected points along the line.
The operation of the system relies on the mutual coupling between a fixed coil assembly in the tunnel and a tuned coil on a passing train producing oscillations in wayside equipment at a frequency dependent on the tuning of the train coil. By providing means of varying the tuning of the train coil a varying number of oscillatory frequencies may be obtained.
The induced frequencies are transmitted via a single pair of lines to the relay rooms at the stations ahead where the particular frequency being transmitted is recognised and selected by suitable equipment and then fed to the storage equipment.
The system provides for any one of eight distinct descriptions to be transmitted on a pair of lines although the equipment could be extended to as many descriptions as may be required still using a single pair of transmission lines.
BRAKE COMMAND SPOTS
Braking at stations is automatically effected by a succession of command spots of progressively decreasing frequencies. They are installed at positions such that their frequency is related to the calculated speed of the train as seen from the braking curve. The command frequencies are designed on the basis of 100 Hz being equal to one mile per hour. Thus a frequency of 4.5 KHz corresponds to 45 M.P.H. and 2.0 KHz to 20 M.P.H. and so on. There were 11 different frequencies used. The frequencies were 5.Khz, 4.5Khz, 4Khz, 3.5Khz, 3Khz, 2.6Khz, 2.3Khz, 2Khz, 1.6Khz, 1.2Khz and 0.8Khz. Proving units were employed in certain of the gated spot generators to check their output. The proving circuit was completed by the energisation of a relay unit whose front contacts were included in the code selection circuit to a track feed set. A failure of a spot generator fitted with a proving unit resulted in a track circuit failure - a fail safe condition. The proving circuit was used to detect the operation of usually one of the first three braking spots at the entering end of the station and always the 0.8 KHz braking spot.
120 CODE
No code is NOT the same as 120 code. No code would cause a track circuit failure. 120 code maintains the track circuit in an 'UP' condition.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 5, 2013 12:10:21 GMT
bruceI never had occasion to work on Vic signalling and I can see that some of the info I picked up over the years was erroneous. Carrier Wave - Pickup through the traction rails makes perfect sense - tying carrier wave comms into a particular current section. Identra - No mention of the relay room sensor/reader which read train numbers through the glass window in the tunnel wall of the headwall relay room via a reflector system? Was this a myth or an early experiment that did not last? Was what you describe as Identra the later service system and what I mention something else? I have seen the aforementioned single brick aperture sized glass plates in the relay room walls at some sites and could quite understand that such a system would quickly fail in service due to tunnel dust, vibration etc - it is more than 30 years since I was told about it by those who installed the original Vic signalling. I was also told that Vic line relay rooms were rewired multiple times before the line opened for passenger service as certain issues were resolved in the familiar way following red inks, green inks, blue inks etc Brake command spots - were there originally more than 11 or was 13 also an erroneous amount?
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Post by bruce on Dec 5, 2013 18:53:06 GMT
The IDENTRA system was a Train Describer system used. It was not a form of Positive Train Identifcation. I cannot think of any Victoria Line relay room or Interlocking Machine Room where there was a glass panel facing towards the track. As far as I can remember there were no cut outs facing the track in the aluminum skin on the inside of these rooms. I know that there have been various experiments over the years ti find a reliable system to read the train number from a passing train. The '67 stock were fitted with train number holders at the bottom of the near side drivers drop light and this is the numbers that the system woulfd have read not those on the front. In the early part of this century a system was devised using high quality video camera's at various points to read the numbers. The camera was only switched on while the train was on the adjacent track circuit to the camera. The signal was read, coded and digitised and then sent to Cobourg Street by a serial link where it was decoded and the number was then displayed on the Program Macine Diagram. In the short time I was at Cobourg Street before I was retired through ill health, this system was switched off. The reason being the dreaded tunnel dust had contaminated the camera's.
I believe that there were originally 12 platform brake spots but the 5.5Khz was found not to be needed. 3 of the 5.5Khz spots were later used on the southbound road from Northumberland Park Depot. :- The spots were installed an equal distance apart and were used to set the 1988 Auto Drive Box up. This was a processor based unit with the layout of the line in a read only memory. The box was also capable of logging signals received from the track along with information from the train. Although only 2 spots were required to set the box up the third one was there in case one of the other two failed. There was also the 20Khz brake spot and the 15Khs coasting spot.
Going back to Alight original post and some clarification:-
V – While the ATO system was in operation the driver has no control of the brakes so there is a Westinghouse brake controller so the driver could override the ATO if it’s necessary.
This is not strictly true. The Train Operator could take control of the train at any time by using the brake/traction controller.
This combined brake and traction controller was nicknamed the 'One Armed Bandit' by some train operators.
V – The ATO system works by picking up codes from the track by a transceiver located on one of the bogies.
The codes are picked up by two coils, each coil is located in front of the leading pair of wheels on the front bogie. An additional pair of coils are used to pick up the brake and coasting commands.
V - A 270 code for trains coasting at around 25mph used when the train approaches a red signal or a section marker.
Section Marker is known as a Headway Post on the Victoria Line. 270 code:- Without getting too technical, a 270 code is applied to certain track circuits when the train ahead is within full speed braking distance of the following train plus a margin of safety. The 270 code permits the train to run at a speed not exceeding 22 M.P.H. with application of the motors. Cancels any brake command. Allows train to re-start after a signal or headway signal stop. The 270 code was never on the last track circuit in a platform.
V - A 180 code for trains needing to stop at a red light or at a station.
Also allows a train to coast at 22 M.P.H. without application of the motors.
V - And a 120 code if the train would to pass a red signal or pass the stopping point this code will cause the train to trip and put on the emergency brakes.
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Post by railtechnician on Dec 5, 2013 20:24:10 GMT
bruceA couple of the headwall relay rooms on the north end of the Vic had the brick sized glass plated apertures in the wall a couple of feet off the ground and a couple of feet in and it was just possible to see out into the tunnel though not clearly. This would seem to coincide with the train numbers being on the side of the train and makes more sense than what I was told i.e. using an angled reflector to beam the number through the glass window! The later system that you mention was trialled on the Picc at Hounslow East, the train number reading cameras mounted on poles in the six foot at each end of the platform area. It was also trialled in the tunnel at the North end of the Picc at Arsenal (IIRC) with the cameras mounted centrally above the headwalls. AFAIR the trial did not run for more than a few months before systems were turned off permanently and they were recovered a few months later. I recall being told that these systems used the same number plate reader technology as used on the roads. As for the Braking spots I had a read up and it turns out that in areas where trains could never reach more than 40 mph one or two spots would not be required. I guess that may account for the number that I was told. Off topic. I did a few jobs at Cobourg St over the years including changing out all the controllers brown GRP desks for the grey/blue metal ones in the late 1980s. They weren't there too long of course before the place was modernised.
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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 5, 2013 20:26:54 GMT
When Building the Victoria to Brixton Extension were greathead shields used? If so I am going to film at Moorgate as their is a greathead shield their at the end for platform 10. Which platform was moorgate disaster
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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 5, 2013 20:37:04 GMT
and how would you open the train up? would you put the reverser thing (offical name please) into AUTO or FWD? any other info would be nice
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Post by bruce on Dec 5, 2013 21:00:29 GMT
Rotary mechanical diggers were used for most of the line. linkThe Moorgate disaster was on Friday 28th February 1975 at 08.46 when a train crashed into the end of the short tunnel at the south end of Platform 9.
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Post by seaeagle on Dec 5, 2013 21:44:01 GMT
and how would you open the train up? would you put the reverser thing (offical name please) into AUTO or FWD? any other info would be nice A driver had two keys, almost shaped like spanners, the smaller one called a control key went into a barrel by the left hand side of the drivers seat and once inserted was turned 90 degrees, this turn on the control equipment, then the larger key called a reverser key was placed in the reverser barrel on the right hand side of the drivers desk, the TBC would be placed in emergency, the reverser key would then be moved to INT, the TBC to off & release, then lastly the reverser key into AUTO or FORWARD.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Dec 6, 2013 14:29:09 GMT
I remember the Identra system,in the middle cabs the links on the switches were supposed to be shorted out to stop middle cabs giving erroneous discriptions,needless to say there were times when it got forgotten.
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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 6, 2013 17:54:02 GMT
Were greathead shields ever used?
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Post by bruce on Dec 6, 2013 18:36:49 GMT
I would imagine that the only places that a form of Greathead Shield whould have been used is in the digging of the Platform tunnels and other station tunnels. As far as I know and can find from various sourses, mainly the internet, that the running tunnels were dug using rotary digging machines which were the forerunners of todays TBM's. All tunneling machines even the latest TBM's are all loosly based on the operation of the Greathead Shield. There was some experimental tunneling done in the Finsbury Park area before the Victoria Line was constructed, this may well have been dug used a form of Greathead Shield with the miners using pneumatic tools. There has been a discussion about this tunnel on District Dave's before. link
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Post by madaboutrains on Dec 7, 2013 18:36:49 GMT
Cool thanks for letting me know
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 2:46:41 GMT
Can anyone Help? I am 14 and I am making a small Documentary about the Victoria Line. Comparing the 1967 TS to the 2009 stock and other trains across the tube network. As the 1967 stock is now a museum piece at LTM and WPH. It is no impossible to find more about it. So I have written a Script about it and I would like someone to look at it and see if I have got all my facts correct or if you have something to make it more interesting or weird parts of the trains. Here It is: (N = Narration and V = what I will say, while I am Filming Please post a link to the documentary, I'd like to see it!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 9:31:49 GMT
hi yes you can there is a museum in walthamstow called the walthamstow pump house museum www.walthamstowpumphousemuseum.org.uk/. i am in charge of a 1967 refurbished driving unit. I've got the original plans & can send copy's of them. if you want copy's of the plans or to visit the museum e-mail me at abdullah.seba@outlook.com
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