|
Post by melikepie on Aug 22, 2013 11:00:34 GMT
According to Modern Railways, the plan for upgrading the Piccadilly Line involves bringing out a brand new stock featuring a sort of LU equivalent of a combination of the DLR and S Stock. The trains are to be fully automated, articulated and cabless and from the design it looks as though we can look out of the front of the train. The upgrade is due to begin in 2017 with the first train to enter in 2021 and finish in 2023. The tracks and signalling will also follow suit
I know not quite related to the Piccadilly but the 1972 Bakerloo stock is also to be extended far beyond its previous estimation but they haven't said how.
What a world we are heading for.
|
|
hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
|
Post by hobbayne on Aug 22, 2013 11:12:00 GMT
They are in no hurry to replace the 73 stock, it is by far the most reliable stock on the underground. When I left the Piccadilly Line I heard they were hoping to get another 10 years out of it! It looks like the dustbin of the underground, the 1992 stock may even get an upgrade before the 73,s
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 11:54:25 GMT
They are in no hurry to replace the 73 stock, it is by far the most reliable stock on the underground. When I left the Piccadilly Line I heard they were hoping to get another 10 years out of it! It looks like the dustbin of the underground, the 1992 stock may even get an upgrade before the 73,s Not sure when you left the Piccadilly, but even if it were yesterday the 10 years you just mentioned matches up with an exit of 2023 which is what the OP said.
|
|
|
Post by rheostar on Aug 22, 2013 13:55:24 GMT
The Piccadilly's due to be fully upgraded by the mid 20's so the OP's spot on.
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Aug 22, 2013 14:27:05 GMT
It also says in the article the Bakerloo trains will last into the 30s
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Aug 22, 2013 19:11:46 GMT
Modern Railways previously hinted that London Underground would have 'firmed up its ideas' by July of this year ( January 2013 article) so it looks like some progress has been made into determining the Piccadilly line upgrade. melikepie - you mention the Bakerloo/Piccadilly lines but does the article make any mention on the proposals to deploy the Evo stock on the Northern or Jubilee lines (see my link to previous article)?
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Aug 22, 2013 21:49:07 GMT
Summary of Modern Railways piece.
Bakerloo and Central stock to remain. 1972 stock to have upgrades to extend life into 30s.
1995 stock now being refurbished and clones likely for Battersea extension.
New trains and line upgrade for the Piccadilly line.
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Aug 22, 2013 22:22:14 GMT
New Tube for London - they could have come up with a better name than this for the tube stock.
Whilst this will eventually use it on the other lines, the Picadilly Line is the first to go and a standalone project. It has apparently been fully funded, subject to future confirmation in the spending periods.
There are also less bogies per carriage to reduce heat and air cooling units to be fitted under the floor. Other specs will follow when I can next reply from reading the article
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Aug 22, 2013 23:09:26 GMT
The bogies are to be shared between carriages, the trains will be driverless, there will be on board assistants and the trains are walk-through with longitudinal seating.
But then again this is all artist's impression
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 23:13:26 GMT
New Tube for London - they could have come up with a better name than this for the tube stock. Whilst this will eventually use it on the other lines, the Picadilly Line is the first to go and a standalone project. It has apparently been fully funded, subject to future confirmation in the spending periods. There are also less bogies per carriage to reduce heat and air cooling units to be fitted under the floor. Other specs will follow when I can next reply from reading the article Surely a new tube for London would have been a better name for the upgrade plan than a train! I assume that the way they're keeping the 72s going is by using spare parts from the recently withdrawn 67 stock some of which is stored at Eastleigh?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 12:06:38 GMT
Well we've got Boris bikes and Boris buses. So perhaps Boris tube trains. Or perhaps NTfL is better .....
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Aug 23, 2013 15:41:05 GMT
Well the "New Tube for London" is just a modification of the "branding" used for Boris's bus - the New Bus for London. It's all a bit pathetic but there you go. At least there is seemingly a bit more clarity about what happens to the Piccadilly Line. Looks like its high level of patronage, serving Heathrow and the need to interface with sub surface resignalling is what pulled it up the ranking. Still all a bit dire for the later upgrades which have receeded even further.
|
|
|
Post by Alight on Aug 23, 2013 17:28:26 GMT
What happened to 'Evo stock' as a name? I prefer this to the cumbersome 'New Tube for London'.
I guess this is because LUL like to promote homogeneous line fleets and so a mix of 1995 and Evo stock wouldn't bode well.
What about the Jubilee line? If there is a desire to increase service levels from 30 to 33 tph, it is estimated that an additional 7 more trains are needed.
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,388
|
Post by Chris M on Aug 23, 2013 17:49:52 GMT
If new C stock can be built then clones of 1995 and 1996 stock should present no insurmountable technical barriers.
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Aug 23, 2013 18:37:16 GMT
If new C stock can be built then clones of 1995 and 1996 stock should present no insurmountable technical barriers. The C stock though was effectively an insurance replacement item and not a mass build that a normal train supplier would be interested in. There are procurement issues to deal with in how you buy a larger fleet for either the Northern or Jubilee lines. You can't really say "more trains from Alstom please" unless there you can put forward a genuinely compelling technical argument for a derogation from the relevant authorities and I doubt very much that that can be done. There is an automatic presumption against derogations to stop people using them just to circumvent the procurement rules. Furthermore I believe there are DDA issues meaning any new trains would have to be compliant whereas the existing trains are not. A derogation had to be sought for the 7th cars on the Jubilee Line and I believe that was something of a struggle. I doubt things would have eased by now given we are closer to the deadline for compliance. The final complication for the Northern Line is the PFI contract with Alstom which I assume is still in place as I have not seen a TfL press release saying they've done something with it - as with DLR, Prestige and Power PFI contracts. Obviously these things can be fixed but tend to take a lot of time and effort.
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on Aug 24, 2013 8:07:49 GMT
I think the Northern Line contract was bought out some time ago. There was a piece in MR about how well it is now working.
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Feb 28, 2014 11:16:27 GMT
|
|
|
Post by melikepie on Feb 28, 2014 23:09:51 GMT
So (in line with the other posts) also that means 100 trains delivering a 60% increase in capacity. How? How many 73s are there?
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 28, 2014 23:48:59 GMT
So (in line with the other posts) also that means 100 trains delivering a 60% increase in capacity. How? How many 73s are there? 175 half-trains were built: (a few have been withdrawn) so the increase in the number of trains is only 14%. The rest of the capacity increase must be through quicker turnrounds, less downtime, or changes in internal layout.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2014 19:42:01 GMT
So (in line with the other posts) also that means 100 trains delivering a 60% increase in capacity. How? How many 73s are there? 175 half-trains were built: (a few have been withdrawn) so the increase in the number of trains is only 14%. The rest of the capacity increase must be through quicker turnrounds, less downtime, or changes in internal layout. Well, it's policy to have as few seats as possible, isn't it?
|
|
metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
Posts: 7,400
|
Post by metman on Mar 23, 2014 13:52:58 GMT
The seat layout depends on the size of the wheels too. I think there is a desire to increase crush loading capacity.
The key for the Piccadilly line is to return to 7 car trains. I noted on the northern this week how limiting 6 cars with only 22 door locations instead of 26 with 7 cars assuming no middle cabs is.
|
|
|
Post by rummer on May 24, 2014 14:26:20 GMT
Not sure how a 7 car walk through train will cope the Kensington bends, could be interesting
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on May 25, 2014 16:13:17 GMT
Think the increase will come from higher frequencies and faster running.
Longer trains would be difficult given the platform lengths.
Incidentally at a presentation this week where it was confirmed that the clones for the Northern and Jubilee lines will be ordered as part of the Piccadilly contract.
|
|
hobbayne
RIP John Lennon and George Harrison
Posts: 516
|
Post by hobbayne on May 25, 2014 22:09:20 GMT
Not sure how a 7 car walk through train will cope the Kensington bends, could be interesting Wasnt the 59 stock a 7 car train? If it was, then there shouldnt be a problem.
|
|
|
Post by barrybahamas on May 26, 2014 0:08:53 GMT
going back to the OP - "The trains are to be fully automated, articulated and cabless" how will they operate where Pic trains share/borrow rails with other lines - I'm mean with the Met in the west and the District where they sometimes swop over (beyond Hammersmith)
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on May 26, 2014 7:42:03 GMT
Not sure how a 7 car walk through train will cope the Kensington bends, could be interesting Wasnt the 59 stock a 7 car train? If it was, then there shouldnt be a problem. The 59 stock cars were shorter
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 9:00:03 GMT
Not sure how a 7 car walk through train will cope the Kensington bends, could be interesting If a semi-walkthrough DLR train can negotiate tight "S-bend crossovers", and a modern walkthrough Paris metro trains can negotiate 20m curves, then I'm sure it will cope!
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on May 26, 2014 9:48:50 GMT
Not sure how a 7 car walk through train will cope the Kensington bends, could be interesting If a semi-walkthrough DLR train can negotiate tight "S-bend crossovers", and a modern walkthrough Paris metro trains can negotiate 20m curves, then I'm sure it will cope! I'm sure that Paris Metro tunnels have more clearance than the tube tunnels on the Piccadilly. Negotiating the curves isn't the problem; it's the ends of the carriages fouling the tunnel wall. However the 92 stock manage to make it round the Caxton curve, so I'm sure the problem has a solution.
|
|
|
Post by rummer on May 26, 2014 13:49:21 GMT
We will have to wait and see on this one but i think it will cause some problems as the bends are tight with a 20 mph speed restriction. If they want this to happen they will find a solution a some point
|
|
|
Post by crusty54 on May 26, 2014 13:58:54 GMT
The length of the station platforms have also got to be considered.
|
|