metman
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Post by metman on Dec 19, 2009 11:39:20 GMT
Heard about it this morning. Why would a sudden change in temperature cause so many trains to fail? Any ideas?
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Dec 19, 2009 11:50:55 GMT
More to the point, why did they all break down in tunnel areas?
My first thought was of points failure at both ends due to the snow.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 19, 2009 12:10:23 GMT
The news suggested it was the sudden temp increase from very cold Northern France to the warm Channel Tunnel.
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SE13
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Post by SE13 on Dec 19, 2009 12:16:56 GMT
You'd kind of expect it to be the other way around.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2009 12:18:09 GMT
Icing on the catenary?
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 19, 2009 12:28:40 GMT
No they broke down when they went into the tunnel! I'm no expert but do the 370s have AC or DC motors?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 19, 2009 12:30:08 GMT
You'd kind of expect it to be the other way around. If the air in the tunnel was much warmer, it could also be moister. Water condensing onto the electrical equipment in the cold train as it entered the warm tunnel could have done it.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 19, 2009 12:47:13 GMT
Equipment flashover then. AC motors IIRC.
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Post by compsci on Dec 19, 2009 13:47:05 GMT
This is effectively the same as glasses misting up when someone enters a warm building when it is cold outside.
Ultimately it also causes rain in the first place when warm, moist air comes into contact with cold air.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Dec 19, 2009 17:38:54 GMT
One of the reports I've read said it was because of the temperature change causing condensation and then mucking up the electrickery.
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Post by 21146 on Dec 19, 2009 18:13:32 GMT
Amazing to see one of the Eurostar sets hauled all the way to St.Pancras using two diesels. I almost considered going to Stratford International to try to photograph this but thought they'd terminate the train at Ashford.
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Post by carlovel1 on Dec 19, 2009 18:19:17 GMT
Didnt manage to see what diesel locomotive it was in the news report but seemed like Class 37.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 19, 2009 19:33:26 GMT
They have a couple of CT liveried 37s so it could have been one of them!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2009 19:48:54 GMT
This has just been covered on tonight's Channel 4 news. They have interviewed a couple of people, who have got themselves convinced that they were walking out of the tunnel "alongside live lines". Now, correct if I am wrong, but the cables in the tunnel and the emergency walkway are on opposite sides are they not? If this is the case, but people were evacuated through the wrong side of the train, then surely the Health and Safety Executive now need to get involved?
As I write this, there are unconfirmed reports of another failed train, again in the tunnel. I don't know how you lot feel about this, but if I was someone who was about to travel to France with Eurostar, and I had the option, I would be looking for flights or ferries. Is it just Calais that is affected by snow, or are there other French ports affected as well?
Surely, after this episode, Eurostar will be under pressure to investigate and evaluate how it maintains and prepares its fleet for cold weather?
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Post by citysig on Dec 19, 2009 20:08:52 GMT
So what do we have here? Wrong kind of temperature? Wrong kind of air? And can we make sure it is noted that it appears to have started on the French side. Helps even the scores up a bit for those who bemoan our railways and say it would never happen abroad ;D ;D
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Post by jamesb on Dec 19, 2009 22:48:24 GMT
I find it very strange that these terrible problems have arisen on this scale only now, some fifteen years since Eurostar began.
Surely the design of the trains must take into account going from cold air into the warmer tunnel air, since thats what the trains were built for?
Why has this problem not occurred before? Is it because the trains are all getting old I wonder?
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Dec 19, 2009 23:09:33 GMT
Eurostar have a major problem. The science is just as compsci describes it, and TBH after all these years it was a failure that couldn't have been predicted, there being no tunnels that long either in UK or France. Only the length of the tunnel gives rise to the much warmer air inside so, just like the Millennium bridge, the engineers can't be blamed for not planning for an event that has never happened before.
And solving it won't be easy, involving immunising all the electrics/underfloor equipment/computers from damp which occurs as a natural result of the change of atmosphere. Won't be quick - new engineering solutions will be needed. No wonder all services on Sunday are cancelled, especially after the abortive attempt to try again this evening.
But it does appear the train managers were out of their depth in dealing with the passengers....................
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Post by jamesb on Dec 19, 2009 23:32:15 GMT
I did find some of the passenger interviews on the BBC website quite amusing... One lady stated that there was no oxygen in the tunnel, stuck there for hours. If there was no oxygen, how can you be still alive?!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 20, 2009 0:31:26 GMT
Only the length of the tunnel gives rise to the much warmer air inside so, .. Most tunnels (and indeed natural caves) hold their temperature better than the outside world. Observe a train that has been snowed on when it enters a deep tube. All the snow will have melted after a few stops.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 1:58:34 GMT
This has just been covered on tonight's Channel 4 news. They have interviewed a couple of people, who have got themselves convinced that they were walking out of the tunnel "alongside live lines". Now, correct if I am wrong, but the cables in the tunnel and the emergency walkway are on opposite sides are they not? If this is the case, but people were evacuated through the wrong side of the train, then surely the Health and Safety Executive now need to get involved? High Speed Rail is a modern system so does not use third rail electrification but overhead wires. And, there is nothing wrong with walking underneath live overhead power, millions of people do it everyday at level crossings. As usual, complete muppets who, when seeing a microphone, try to make something sound more exciting/scandalous.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 20, 2009 3:53:22 GMT
As the Eurostars can (and did) run on third-rail electrified lines it wouldn't surprise me if there were warnings about the dangers of live rails in the "in the event of an emergency" information. It wouldn't surprise me if someone not familiar with railways read that and got confused in a stressful situation.
As for solving the situation, well a short-term fix might be to keep a small fleet of rescue locomotives in warm store near either end of the tunnel and to have crews on standby to operate them whenever very cold temperatures are forecast.
Longer term would be to look at other railways around the world. Off the top of my head, I'd have thought that the Russian, Japanese, US and Canadian railways would be ones that might have experience of electric trains + cold weather + long tunnels.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 10:10:31 GMT
Eurostar used to have a fleet of 12 class 37s. They sold most of them to DRS!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 10:34:38 GMT
As the Eurostars can (and did) run on third-rail electrified lines it wouldn't surprise me if there were warnings about the dangers of live rails in the "in the event of an emergency" information. It wouldn't surprise me if someone not familiar with railways read that and got confused in a stressful situation. That is correct but they only used third rail on existing infrastructure, not on High Speed 1. The Channel Tunnel has never had third rail and that is where these incidents happened. Furthermore, I believe I read that all shoes etc. were removed from the Eurostar stock so they can't run on third rail anymore.
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metman
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Post by metman on Dec 20, 2009 10:52:20 GMT
Yes I think they were removed on their previous overhaul.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 11:01:39 GMT
I find it very strange that these terrible problems have arisen on this scale only now, some fifteen years since Eurostar began. According to Roger Ford this isn't a new problem - Eurostar trains have suffered the same before, but this time they got unlucky with the number of trains affected, the timing of those trains in the evening, the length of time taken to recover them - and, it seems, most importantly from a media coverage point of view, the Disneyland train full of small kids and Daily Mail reading mums being involved.
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Post by jamesb on Dec 20, 2009 13:20:21 GMT
I do feel a (little) bit sorry for Eurostar staff on the individual trains. The problems were on a very large scale, and happened at the worst possible time of year, with trains full of families. With trains stuck all over the tunnels, it was complex. There haven't been any reports of any injuries. If a Eurostar train has never been evacuated in the tunnel before, having FIVE going wrong inside the tunnel at once was bad luck. Even emergency training exercises probably only involve one or two trains. So their emergency procedures were tested to the limit, and every weakness has been exposed in great detail by the media. The staff can only respond as best as they have been prepared themselves. Reports of passengers hammering on a drivers door and hearing him in tears, doesn't sound very pleasant for the driver either. It looks to me like whoever was in charge of the overall situation took their eye off the ball. It will be interesting to hear at what time incidents were declared, and what action was taken to stop more trains going into the tunnels and getting stuck. I'm sure we will hear stories of poor communication between individual trains and the control centre, confusion about who was in charge of the situation, and of a major incident getting declared too late. Thats my prediction anyway
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Post by 21146 on Dec 20, 2009 13:22:19 GMT
The locos used seemed to be two yellow "camel-backed" departmental locos with central cabs. Are these owned by Eurotunnel or maybe the CTRL/HS1 infrastructure maintainer? Interesting that they're cleared to operate all the way through to St.Pancras it seems.
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Post by jswallow on Dec 20, 2009 13:31:31 GMT
Nobody's questioning the fact that the Channel Tunnel is AC overhead, but commented that one of the passengers/broadcaster has made the ASSUMPTION based on the "beware of live rails" notice that there's live rail down there. If you didn't know what was there, saw a sign there was live rails and was then evacuated from a train, wouldn't you start to put two and two together and potentially come up with five?
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Post by metrailway on Dec 20, 2009 13:38:35 GMT
The locos used seemed to be two yellow "camel-backed" departmental locos with central cabs. Are these owned by Eurotunnel or maybe the CTRL/HS1 infrastructure maintainer? Interesting that they're cleared to operate all the way through to St.Pancras it seems. Yeah, they're MAK diesel locos, classified by Eurotunnel as Class 0001, and 5 were built in 1992. They're owned by Eurotunnel NOT Eurostar. They're usually used to move failed Le Shuttle engines, but since Eurostar have sold most of their rescue fleet, the Class 37s, these were utilised I found some pictures of them: www.rtranmer.fotopic.net/c1793764.htmlRather oddly, they're maintained in the Netherlands due to there similarity to NS 6400
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2009 13:55:45 GMT
Nobody's questioning the fact that the Channel Tunnel is AC overhead, but commented that one of the passengers/broadcaster has made the ASSUMPTION based on the "beware of live rails" notice that there's live rail down there. If you didn't know what was there, saw a sign there was live rails and was then evacuated from a train, wouldn't you start to put two and two together and potentially come up with five? Sure, but why would there be a sign saying "beware of live rails" when there are no live rails in or anywhere near the tunnel? I find it just as likely you could come across a sign saying "Beware of the Yeti" in the tunnel... I don't believe anyone saw a sign warning of live rails, they just made it up. "Oh, it's a train in a tunnel, London has live rails in tunnels so there must be a live rail in this tunnel." Evacuation usually takes place via the third service tunnel which is used on a daily basis for maintenance and is permanently occupied by emergency crews with fire engines. There are no rails in that tunnel and no live rails either.
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