Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 27, 2009 9:25:27 GMT
At least one of the Tramlink trams that are now TfL's is named.
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 27, 2009 19:17:45 GMT
At least one of the Tramlink trams that are now TfL's is named. Only one tram is named, and it was named before TfL took over Tramlink. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 27, 2009 20:26:31 GMT
...so it's going to be a case of RIP Metropolitan Line? Why? The line will still be there, the 'A' Stock are not The Metropolitan Line. In 40 years time the 'S' Stock will be regarded in a similar fashion too. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 27, 2009 20:27:40 GMT
I don't think a little crest on a train is that important.. as for the Tim plaque on this train, I am sure it will be removed before it enters service No, it will not. The train will enter service in May with the plaque attached. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 27, 2009 20:29:37 GMT
Why? I'm no 'company man', but my view is that he's probably one of the best MD's LU has ever had - what's so wrong with naming a train after the bloke? I don't personally disagree with it. But I am sure it goes against all TfL's corporate standard policies. Concessions against the relevant standards exist to allow it to be there, along with the relevant modification and change control processes from Bombardier (it is still their train right now). |
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 27, 2009 20:47:57 GMT
Why? The line will still be there, the 'A' Stock are not The Metropolitan Line. Because the S stock will make the line like all the other tube lines. The Met has always been very different to other lines, and once it gets S stock and eventually ATO, it will just be like the District really. The A stock are not the Met, but they are not tube trains - they are more like suburban trains, and the Met is really a suburban line - look at the types of services it runs. The S stock are just like any other train LU has. In 40 years time the 'S' Stock will be regarded in a similar fashion too. Only because whatever replaces the S stock will have even less seats that will just be a plastic bench with no cushion, and will look even uglier. |
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Oracle
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Post by Oracle on Apr 27, 2009 21:25:01 GMT
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 27, 2009 22:14:52 GMT
In forty years time, nobody will remember the Metropolitan Railway. It will simply be the first line built! I'll be nearly 70 then! The S stock seats don't seem too bad, although they are not as numerous as I'd like!
It is interesting to read Snowden's book on Met Rly stock, the introduction of London Transport's A60 stock sent the remaining Met stock (T and Dreadnoughts) into oblivion! Clearly the new saloon trains weren't too hot either!
As far as Metroland residents go (I probably owe my existance to the Met!) the S stock will be seen as a couple of fingers up to the Met user! The seat layout is at best a token effort! Perhaps Xrail should have gone to Aylesbury, least we could have then dispelled the myth that the Met is still a mainline railway?
It is interesting to note that there were thoughts that the Bakerloo would be extended to Harrow (calling at Northwick Pk and Preston Rd) with all Met trains running non-stop to Finchley Road from Harrow!
Funny how things turn out! All I know, is that in two years time, the Met will be very different........
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 28, 2009 22:13:55 GMT
It is interesting to read Snowden's book on Met Rly stock, the introduction of London Transport's A60 stock sent the remaining Met stock (T and Dreadnoughts) into oblivion! Clearly the new saloon trains weren't too hot either! But there were problems with trains that had compartments. Passengers couldn't spread out through the carriage, and drivers would have had to get off the train to get to the other cab. And then there was the problem of doors being left open. They wouldn't allow trains with a seating layout like T stock and Dreadnoughts to run through tunnels now, because of health & safety reasons. But what would be the problem of having seating similar to the A stock, but 2+2 instead of 2+3, in Met S stock? |
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Apr 28, 2009 22:36:40 GMT
I've been doing a liitle bit of digging into the Liverpool Overhead Railway of late, and given their loadings (high) and the use of slam doors the longest average station stop of 30 seconds at Pier Head, 28 sec at Canada Dock (most being 25 sec Brocklebank, Huskisson, James St., Herculaneum) and the rest 20 sec. I'm now not quite so convinced about the perils and henious timekeeping evils of compartment doors and dwell times as is repeated about T stock. Bear in mind too that the LOR ran 30 tph.
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Post by happybunny on Apr 29, 2009 16:41:45 GMT
Yes I think I have seen a LO train named something like "The pride of Hackney" .... if a clapped out nackerd old train is the 'Pride' of Hackney.... well actually yeah it makes sense...
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 29, 2009 17:36:01 GMT
There are a lot of named London Overground trains. All of their class 150s are named. There is a list on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_150#LondonI can't find a list of LO class 313 names. I can think of these, but there might be another one that I can't think of: 313101: Silvertown 313109: Arnold Leah 313116: Nikola Tesla 313120: Parliment Hill I don't think any LO class 508s were named. |
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Apr 29, 2009 17:36:35 GMT
Yes I think I have seen a LO train named something like "The pride of Hackney" .... if a clapped out nackerd old train is the 'Pride' of Hackney.... well actually yeah it makes sense... ;D ;D I think you mean 'The Hackney Empire' (313 134) |
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Post by 21146 on Apr 29, 2009 17:37:12 GMT
[/quote]Only because whatever replaces the S stock will have even less seats that will just be a plastic bench with no cushion, and will look even uglier.[/quote][/i][/size]
Once regular Met Line travellers realise the %-loss of seats on the S Stock per-train I think their introduction will be a PR disaster for LU.
Also why should someone travelling on the District Line from, say, Dagenham to Victoria in the peak have less chance of getting a seat than someone travelling for the same distance on the Metropolitan, esp as the latter has fast and semi-fast running to reduce journey time and the District doesn't.
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Apr 29, 2009 17:38:24 GMT
There are a lot of named London Overground trains. All of their class 150s are named. There is a list on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_150#LondonI can't find a list of LO class 313 names. I can think of these, but there might be another one that I can't think of: 313101: Silvertown 313109: Arnold Leah 313116: Nikola Tesla 313120: Parliment Hill I don't think any LO class 508s were named. According to my 2008 Combined Volume, 313 111 is also named London TravelWatch |
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 29, 2009 17:47:23 GMT
'The Hackney Empire' (313 134) According to my 2008 Combined Volume, 313 111 is also named London TravelWatch That means there are 6 named class 313s: 313101: Silvertown 313109: Arnold Leah 313111: London TravelWatch 313116: Nikola Tesla 313120: Parliment Hill 313134: The Hackney Empire Also why should someone travelling on the District Line from, say, Dagenham to Victoria in the peak have less chance of getting a seat than someone travelling for the same distance on the Metropolitan, esp as the latter has fast and semi-fast running to reduce journey time and the District doesn't. But isn't Dagenham a lot closer to London than Amersham? Also, District line trains run on the Circle a lot more than Met trains do, and it makes sense to have a standard fleet of 7-car S stock. |
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Post by happybunny on Apr 29, 2009 17:59:17 GMT
Yes I think I have seen a LO train named something like "The pride of Hackney" .... if a clapped out nackerd old train is the 'Pride' of Hackney.... well actually yeah it makes sense... ;D ;D I think you mean 'The Hackney Empire' (313 134) Ahh yes the Hackney Empire thats it... hmm great  |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 29, 2009 23:00:11 GMT
'The Hackney Empire' (313 134) That means there are 6 named class 313s: 313101: Silvertown 313109: Arnold Leah 313111: London TravelWatch 313116: Nikola Tesla 313120: Parliment Hill 313134: The Hackney Empire Also why should someone travelling on the District Line from, say, Dagenham to Victoria in the peak have less chance of getting a seat than someone travelling for the same distance on the Metropolitan, esp as the latter has fast and semi-fast running to reduce journey time and the District doesn't. But isn't Dagenham a lot closer to London than Amersham? Also, District line trains run on the Circle a lot more than Met trains do, and it makes sense to have a standard fleet of 7-car S stock. Also District customers have the option of changing onto the C2C at Barking which takes them to the City. The Met has no option,unless you want to go to Marylebone...... |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 29, 2009 23:20:43 GMT
Because the S stock will make the line like all the other tube lines. The Met has always been very different to other lines, and once it gets S stock and eventually ATO, it will just be like the District really. In the nicest possible sense, I have no idea what you are talking about. The Met line is part of the Underground network just like any other line and it's about time everyone faced up to it and stopped living in some dream world where there are porters on platforms and a compartment for everyone. If the Met does end up like the District line (and frankly I would travel on the District line any day over the Met if I had the choice) then I can't see why that is a bad thing. The A stock are not the Met, but they are not tube trains - they are more like suburban trains, and the Met is really a suburban line - look at the types of services it runs. I hate to break it to you but the 'A' Stock are LU rolling stock just like any other line has. The fact that they have a different seating layout is no different to the 'C' Stock having longitudinal seats to cater for the city. So what if the timetable is slightly different to allow for fast trains? It is an LU line like any other and should be treated in the same way. The S stock are just like any other train LU has. Are you serious? Have you seen the 'S' Stock? Are me and you even from the same planet, because on what planet will 'S' Stock be like any other LU train? I can't even be bothered to start to list the amount of unique features that the 'S' Stock will introduce to LU. Unbelievable!!  Only because whatever replaces the S stock will have even less seats that will just be a plastic bench with no cushion, and will look even uglier. With over 3 million customers every day and sometimes nudging 4 million LU will do whatever is best to cater for an ever increasing amount of customers travelling (today and in the future). As for ugly, I couldn't care less as long as it does the job but just for the record I think 'S' Stock is quite nice actually and furthermore have never favoured 'A' Stock which is a 'pigs ear' of a design to my mind. As for plastic benchs, nice prediction but don't bet your mortgage on it as it will never happen. Apologies for being so robust but quite frankly I am sick and tired of this whole 'lets treat the Met special' nonsense - it is a line and it has trains just like every other part of the network. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 29, 2009 23:29:20 GMT
In forty years time, nobody will remember the Metropolitan Railway. It will simply be the first line built! I'll be nearly 70 then! The S stock seats don't seem too bad, although they are not as numerous as I'd like! I think the Met will always hold a special place in some peoples hearts. If I'm honest I don't quite get it and as an H&C man I would argue that Farringdon to Bishops Road (Paddington) was the first Underground railway, it didn't go north from baker Street for some time!  ;D It is interesting to read Snowden's book on Met Rly stock, the introduction of London Transport's A60 stock sent the remaining Met stock (T and Dreadnoughts) into oblivion! Clearly the new saloon trains weren't too hot either! With a loss of seats to boot!! I am sure that people back then claimed that the 'A' Stock would be the end of the Met too. The Met should be bigger than just it's rolling stock if your passion is to be believed. As far as Metroland residents go (I probably owe my existance to the Met!) the S stock will be seen as a couple of fingers up to the Met user! The seat layout is at best a token effort! Perhaps Xrail should have gone to Aylesbury, least we could have then dispelled the myth that the Met is still a mainline railway? I hope that is not the case. The Met users we had come down to the Euston mock-up left feeling a lot better about things once they had seen the layout and understood the time and effort put into making the train work. X Rail could end up with an 'S' Stock variant depending on who wins the contract. I hope that after a settling in period our more vocal Met line customers will come around. It is interesting to note that there were thoughts that the Bakerloo would be extended to Harrow (calling at Northwick Pk and Preston Rd) with all Met trains running non-stop to Finchley Road from Harrow! Funny how things turn out! All I know, is that in two years time, the Met will be very different........ It will be very different but it will still be the Met line, surely an upgrade cannot wipe that out?  |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 29, 2009 23:50:33 GMT
Lets hope not, as long as the characters I know on the line remain for some time....
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 30, 2009 9:47:36 GMT
In the nicest possible sense, I have no idea what you are talking about. The Met line is part of the Underground network just like any other line Apart from the service pattern of course, which is more like an outer suburban railway and less like a Metro. Like being too long for the infrastructure they have to fit into? That must be pretty unique. I have five colleagues who spend their time trying to assess the impact of the S Stock on signal berths, sighting and similar. I doubt that the berth issue had arisen if someone had paid a thought to the length of the train instead of customising an off the shelf Bombardier design. Never mind the teams of people immunising track circuits such that the S Stock traction package won't upset them... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2009 13:54:45 GMT
Trust me, building trains and then having to fit the railway around them is not new It is a trick that BR learned towards the end (155/158 sprinters spring to mind. The sight of engineers using angle grinders on platform edges is one to behold!). Electrical interferance from new trains is not unique either. It seems that, every time a new train is being designed, the team start with a blank sheet of paper rather than considering what has worked in the past and how the trains will fit on the current system.
As for the merits of slam door compartment stock, Since the introduction of 'Desiro' stock down our way, the station dwell times are such that the Portsmouth to Eastleigh/ Southampton stopping service is now slower than it has been for over a century! We used to manage station stops of 20 seconds comfortably with the slam door trains. Even a 12 car stopper to London could be comfortably timed. Generally it takes 20 seconds for the guard to give the door release button a press!
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Post by astock5000 on Apr 30, 2009 16:12:16 GMT
In the nicest possible sense, I have no idea what you are talking about. The Met line is part of the Underground network just like any other line and it's about time everyone faced up to it and stopped living in some dream world where there are porters on platforms and a compartment for everyone. If the Met does end up like the District line (and frankly I would travel on the District line any day over the Met if I had the choice) then I can't see why that is a bad thing. Just because the Met is part of LU doesn't mean it should be the same as any other line. What is the problem of having 2+2, comfortable seating in Met S stock. The Met will have a seperate fleet anyway.If the Met ends up like the District (and it will), I won't ever use it. I hate to break it to you but the 'A' Stock are LU rolling stock just like any other line has. The fact that they have a different seating layout is no different to the 'C' Stock having longitudinal seats to cater for the city. So what if the timetable is slightly different to allow for fast trains? It is an LU line like any other and should be treated in the same way. It is not just the seating layout, it is also the type of seats. A stock seats are more comfortable than the seats on other LU trains. I know you think they are 'horrible' but a lot of people like them. Are you serious? Have you seen the 'S' Stock? Are me and you even from the same planet, because on what planet will 'S' Stock be like any other LU train? I can't even be bothered to start to list the amount of unique features that the 'S' Stock will introduce to LU. Unbelievable!! I was talking about their seating layout. With over 3 million customers every day and sometimes nudging 4 million LU will do whatever is best to cater for an ever increasing amount of customers travelling (today and in the future). As for ugly, I couldn't care less as long as it does the job but just for the record I think 'S' Stock is quite nice actually and furthermore have never favoured 'A' Stock which is a 'pigs ear' of a design to my mind. As for plastic benchs, nice prediction but don't bet your mortgage on it as it will never happen. A stock isn't any worse than other sub-surface trains, like C stock. I think S stock would look much better if the M door was grey instead of red, and if the window in the M door was the same height as the other windows in the cab. |
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Post by 100andthirty on Apr 30, 2009 19:08:34 GMT
This is a fascinating argument for a thread headed, named train! Any chance of stopping this one and opening a new one?
The naming of a train after Tim O'Toole is intended as a unique tribute to a great leader. It was a complete surprise to him and he was genuinely touched and emotional about it.
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Post by 100andthirty on Apr 30, 2009 19:36:36 GMT
I have been privileged to visit Old Dalby and see the new train. The mock up didn't do justice to the sheer sense of space. although it's the same width as the C stock, it feels bigger than A stock. Although it's a very personal thing, I think the seats are very comfortable.
This is not a thinly disguised standard Bombardier product. It has been specifically designed for LU. Bombardier describe it as part of their metro "platform" range Movia, but this is a marketing thing.
All LU trains have in some way required the infrastructure to be fitted to the train. If we always fitted the train to the infrastructure, then the trains would gradually get smaller and smaller.
The adjustments to things like stopping positions starting signals and so on are not only due to the longer trains but also because we want to provide a clear view of the signals for all shapes and sizes of train operator in what will be a much more comfortable cab (my opinion again!).
Personally, I think S stock is the best metro train in the world. But I'm biased!
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 30, 2009 22:36:06 GMT
Apart from the service pattern of course, which is more like an outer suburban railway and less like a Metro. Like being too long for the infrastructure they have to fit into? That must be pretty unique. No, not really. Lots of trains on LU have cut out facilities for doors that are outside of the useable platform area. I have five colleagues who spend their time trying to assess the impact of the S Stock on signal berths, sighting and similar. I doubt that the berth issue had arisen if someone had paid a thought to the length of the train instead of customising an off the shelf Bombardier design. There are lots of people doing lots of things on lots of projects in order to get the SSR upgraded. Any new stock would need to have this process applied. Never mind the teams of people immunising track circuits such that the S Stock traction package won't upset them... All modern rolling stock kick out electromagnetic interference. The Javelins had to be signed off by our engineers before they were able to run into St Pancras for this very same reason. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 30, 2009 22:40:30 GMT
Just because the Met is part of LU doesn't mean it should be the same as any other line. What is the problem of having 2+2, comfortable seating in Met S stock. The Met will have a seperate fleet anyway.If the Met ends up like the District (and it will), I won't ever use it. We modelled 2+2 seating and it didn't work. The throughway was compromised and the layout was rendered unuseable. You have to remember that 'S' Stock is narrower than 'A' Stock. It is not just the seating layout, it is also the type of seats. A stock seats are more comfortable than the seats on other LU trains. I know you think they are 'horrible' but a lot of people like them. It is subjective to be honest, I know lots of people who don't like the 'A' Stock seats. A stock isn't any worse than other sub-surface trains, like C stock. I think S stock would look much better if the M door was grey instead of red, and if the window in the M door was the same height as the other windows in the cab. The 'M' Door glass was altered to avoid rail glare at the request of the Trade Unions. |
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prjb
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Post by prjb on Apr 30, 2009 22:41:07 GMT
This is a fascinating argument for a thread headed, named train! Any chance of stopping this one and opening a new one? The naming of a train after Tim O'Toole is intended as a unique tribute to a great leader. It was a complete surprise to him and he was genuinely touched and emotional about it. Fair point! ;D |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on May 1, 2009 0:09:08 GMT
Prjb, I'd love to see the research about the seating layout and the 2+2 quagmire. I'm not looking for a fight, and I appreciate this must be something extremely exascerbating for you both personally and professionally! I just dont understand how NR can still in new builds find 2+2 acceptable, whereas LUL can't. I know loading gauges are different, but the tube has mitigated that thus far by building shorter instead of narrower. Having said that, I'm sure that if you had a pound for everytime somebody said "Well if I had my way I'ld do it like this..." you'd probably have earned more than a years salary  My email is on my user page |
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